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Colorado Prospector - Gem and mineral prospecting and mining forums > Land Rights, Laws and References > Prospecting and Mining Laws, Regulations etc.
Diamond Digger
Hi,
I know this has been discussed before anyone has the link?
I have several claims on FS land but cannot get hold of the PVT land owner over who's land I must travel to my claims?
Ideas?
We need to get in asap?
Anyone can pinpoint a law I can refer to?
Thanks
Andy
Yoda
Andy,

I believe this is the link to the information you are looking for. Lots of good info regarding access rights.

http://www.coloradoprospector.com/forums/i...?showtopic=4304

The quick and dirty of it is that private lands are private lands... and can be restricted (within reason) as the owner sees fit. However, that doesn't mean they necessarily own the road. If they do, then the road is their land as well, meaning traffic is subject to their approval. If there is no road at all, then you are at the mercy of the land owner's prior approval, even to walk through.

But if there is a public road (to include forestry service roads, county roads, etc) and it is on their land, then you have every right to utilize it to pass on through (but not a right to stop or deviate from the road until off their land).
MikeS
I am sorta confused Diamond Digger. If you have claims back there how did you access them in the first place? Were the claims purchased from someone else without you visiting them first?
Diamond Digger
MikeS

We claimed by Helicopter but it seems the closed road is a FS road.
Andy




QUOTE (MikeS @ May 13 2015, 05:20 PM) *
I am sorta confused Diamond Digger. If you have claims back there how did you access them in the first place? Were the claims purchased from someone else without you visiting them first?

Denise
Great answer Yoda!! happy088.gif

Hi Andy!
I'm still confused on how you were able to stake a claim here when you are a citizen of the U.K.?
One must be a U.S. citizen or working for a U.S. corporation to stake a claim in the U.S.
Yoda
QUOTE (Mrs.CP @ May 14 2015, 07:33 AM) *
One must be a U.S. citizen or working for a U.S. corporation to stake a claim in the U.S.


Or have had declared intention to become a U.S. citizen as a legal immigrant, or be acting as an agent (paid or otherwise) for a declared claimant (whether U.S. citizen or a U.S. corporation). The latter example of which would mean it wouldn't be "his" claim, but the claimant could certainly give him permission to utilize the claim thereafter.

Given the use of a helicopter, my guess would lie in the realm of corporate affairs, but there a more than a handful of other possibilities (like dual citizenship, or being a U.S. Citizen who normally lives/is stationed abroad.)
Diamond Digger

No sinister workings.
I am working for and with a US corporation.
Still looking for the law that grants access to a mining claim over private land, I did see a post here at some time but cannot find it again.
The guy posted and said he is the land owner and a miner wants to use his road what can he do to stop the miner, someone quoted a law and said he must allow the miner access to his claim.
I spend hours looking for that post, can't find it.
Thanks for your interest and time.
Andy

QUOTE (Yoda @ May 14 2015, 01:29 PM) *
Or have had declared intention to become a U.S. citizen as a legal immigrant, or be acting as an agent (paid or otherwise) for a declared claimant (whether U.S. citizen or a U.S. corporation). The latter example of which would mean it wouldn't be "his" claim, but the claimant could certainly give him permission to utilize the claim thereafter.

Given the use of a helicopter, my guess would lie in the realm of corporate affairs, but there a more than a handful of other possibilities (like dual citizenship, or being a U.S. Citizen who normally lives/is stationed abroad.)

MikeS
QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ May 14 2015, 04:21 PM) *
No sinister workings.
I am working for and with a US corporation.
Still looking for the law that grants access to a mining claim over private land, I did see a post here at some time but cannot find it again.
The guy posted and said he is the land owner and a miner wants to use his road what can he do to stop the miner, someone quoted a law and said he must allow the miner access to his claim.
I spend hours looking for that post, can't find it.
Thanks for your interest and time.
Andy


Well Andy, I have not seen that topic you are searching for or I would point you to it. For your access issue I would start by finding out if that is indeed a public road or not. The local Forest Service Office may be able to help you with that question. I am not aware of a law that would require a property owner to give you access through their property. If the road in question is not public, you may be limited to the helicopter or hiking in from the closest public access that avoids trespassing on private property. Hope this helps.
fenixsmom
The only time I can think of someone having to lawfully allow people access to their private property is for a ranching for wildlife grant. That's hunting though.
For an unpatented claim you need to allow access to the claim except some 100+ feet from your working mineral discovery.
GeoMatt
QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ May 13 2015, 03:09 PM) *
Hi,
I know this has been discussed before anyone has the link?
I have several claims on FS land but cannot get hold of the PVT land owner over who's land I must travel to my claims?
Ideas?
We need to get in asap?
Anyone can pinpoint a law I can refer to?
Thanks
Andy




Either track the landowner down and obtain an access agreement (usually requires $, and there is no guarantee that the landowner will consent), or go rent that helicopter again (again, usually requires $). There is no way to skirt the issue. If it is a landlocked federal parcel, you already knew that before you staked it. I do agree though it is a pain to have to hike in for miles, when there is a private road that runs right next to a claim. Been there, done that.
swizz
If there's a way to legally "hike in" (for miles)..... I would probably focus on that.
File a Plan Of Operation with the BLM and improve that access so you can get in by Truck, Jeep, ATV, or motocross bike.
If you can afford heli rides .... you can certainly afford to bust a navigable trail or road. Chain saws, winches, stump pullers, and sweat.
Yoda
Andy,

See if this link was the one. http://www.coloradoprospector.com/forums/i...hl=private+land

It doesn't really change any of the answers, but it does try to work through how RS 2477 does and does not apply (and the room for interpretation is pretty wide between judges). The bottom line of it is that it would be very difficult to guarantee an outcome with use of this specific law as basis to overrule the rights of a private land owner. Without the private land owner's approval, this would probably have to be resolved in court, with a great deal of burden of proof (and numbers you probably won't be able to produce unless that road is being used on a regular basis by the public ... which it sounds like it isn't) falling to your company.

It would be a risk, something I wouldn't even bother trying on a road that is claimed as private but nobody has shown any intent to use except by your company; but maybe your corporation's legal counsel can help you decide what route you'll ultimately be taking from this point, and/or knows something we don't. (And if they do end up knowing that something, please let us know!)

Swizz likely has the right of it: resources might be better applied by creating an access, either by leasing access rights to the road from the owner, or filing plans/building a new access on public grounds. Naturally, the cost of either means of creating that access will have to be weighed heavily against the minimum expected yield of the claim (which means you'll want a geologist to weigh in on the claim's yield value, presuming your company doesn't like to take "wildcat play" risks on prospecting/mining.)

It's a tough answer, but this is why it is so important to establish proper access while researching any area to claim. And when you are requiring operating with a profit yield, that access is much more important from the standpoint of costs of impact should the road be lost for use. Most companies will ensure they have taken steps to ensure those roads stay available, either by working with the county or any existing land owners with leases... and naturally, that work would probably prove an ongoing effort for the life of the mine.

Unless you have proof for certain that the road is open to the public, I would be hammering away at a lease deal with the private owner that provides said owner a comfort level that their land is protected, speaks to any misgivings they may have, gives them enough of a taste for granting access (ie, pay them enough so they will feel inclined to renew the deal later), and finally gives your company guarantee of access (at least along that stretch of road) for a specific length of time.
Diamond Digger
Thanks all,
Problem solved there was a FS road that reach the claims. Slightly covered up but easily cleared.


However it seems that there is no law that a Miner can use to cross PVT land? How about Split Estates where the Mineral rights belong to the Gov and the topsoil to the owner? I know you can claim PVT land if the Gov owns the mineral rights. But how about access? There should be such a law somewhere.
Your efforts are appreciated.
Thanks
Andy
swizz
The US Government as an entity can't "own" any mineral rights, mines, or mining claims. I don't believe that is a possibility or lawful activity of theirs.
Really glad that you have worked out the access!!! Improve that road and show us some pics! char098.gif
GeoMatt
QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ May 24 2015, 09:32 AM) *
Thanks all,
Problem solved there was a FS road that reach the claims. Slightly covered up but easily cleared.


However it seems that there is no law that a Miner can use to cross PVT land? How about Split Estates where the Mineral rights belong to the Gov and the topsoil to the owner? I know you can claim PVT land if the Gov owns the mineral rights. But how about access? There should be such a law somewhere.
Your efforts are appreciated.
Thanks
Andy




I have dealt with split estate (private surface/federal mineral) a few places here in the west. Permission is still required from the surface owner to stake the federal mineral. Without landowner permission you are subject to trespass laws. I've known a few to do it without permission and claim ignorance if caught, and I've known some who have tried and have been met with a shotgun. Even if you already have title to mineral in a split estate situation, you still have to have permission/access agreement with the surface owner.
Yoda
Almost always, those with sub-surface mineral interests who wish to exercise their split-estate rights must either negotiate access terms and liabilities with all affected private land owners (and have those parties agree to the offer), or pursue the extent of necessary access they will be granted to extract those minerals without agreement as required (and usually involves the lawyers to some degree, either by representation or a court case). Wyoming has a famous and recent case regarding this. (Google "North Star Oil Split Estates")

Many home owners (especially in larger cities) will have signed away most of their mineral rights upon purchase, without understanding the potential impact of what that means. While it doesn't mean the mineral right owning entity can just show up and go about doing as they please (IE, they generally are not permitted to remove private property fixtures, must be at least aware of noise levels and provide abatement if necessary, must provide compensation for any damage or utility interruption, etc) the mineral ownership or lease will carry all the legal weight necessary to have their accesses assured with necessary stipulations, be allowed to extract the the mineral, and then generally be required to restore the land to it's original state and ensure it is safe upon completion. Why? Because the home/property owner basically signed away the right to say otherwise, back when when they purchased it. But they also retain the right to protect their property and ability to reside on it; if the sub-surface mineral owner screws any of that up, even to the point of just interruption, they are liable to the extent the granted access previously determined (and the power shift's heavily back to the private land owner).

Mineral rights of a private owner who purchased the land "Fee Simple" (or was granted the land as a Public Land Title, purchased back/required mineral lease after expiration, etc) will own both surface and sub-surface mineral rights, and typically the only way to lose that is to sell or lease those rights themselves. (Exceptions would be extremely rare and generally involve having lost an eminent domain battle in court.)

Without taking a stance: The US Government claims no mineral rights, but can take numerous actions to affect mineral rights (whether right or wrong). This is uncommon (well, depending on who you ask), and usually done with the intent to protect land/wilderness/resources that are unique... but sometimes a little political skullduggery takes place in the darker parts of the politics/law world too. Lets face it, our U.S. politicians are far from being shining examples of democracy, and generally are not above granting specific interests "special" political privilege for the right political donations. stamp.gif
CP
Excellent input Jason! thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

I'd also have to agree with what GeoMatt said on the previous page....To me this sounds like a land locked parcel more than likely surrounded by private ranches.... That fact should have been known and considered when or prior to staking this claim as a concern to how the claim could operate once staked. IMHO 2c.gif
ASTROBLEME
QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ May 24 2015, 09:32 AM) *
Thanks all,
Problem solved there was a FS road that reach the claims. Slightly covered up but easily cleared.


However it seems that there is no law that a Miner can use to cross PVT land? How about Split Estates where the Mineral rights belong to the Gov and the topsoil to the owner? I know you can claim PVT land if the Gov owns the mineral rights. But how about access? There should be such a law somewhere.
Your efforts are appreciated.
Thanks
Andy


Hello Andy,

Back in 2011, I was interested in prospecting for rare earth and radioactive deposits that were known to occur in an area that was a "split estate". I filed a Notice of Intent to Locate under Public Law No. 103-23 of April 16, 1993. Once approved, the target parcels were segregated for a 90 day period under COC# 074888 so that my company could follow through on the proposed plan. I subsequently discovered a world class thorium deposit containing rare earth elements and LOTS of smoky quartz crystals. The lode cuts across a county maintained all-weather road so I didn't have to negotiate for further access rights.

This process may not be available for all "split estate" lands but it isn't too complex or expensive to pursue on lands that were patented under the Livestock Raising Homestead Act of 1916. Similar laws may be used for other type of split estates.

Where there is the will, there is a way...

Best Wishes for your success,

ASTROBLEME
Diamond Digger
Astrobleme,

Yeah the road the Farmer locked was a FS road so no worries there but there was another FS block that connected to ours with a small road leading onto our claims. So no worries there the road is cleared a little steep in one place but we have good access to our Mill site and claims.

But I agree with you where there is a will there is a way for sure.

As for the Gov owning the mineral rights... well they do most of it, not that they will work it, it was just never given to the homesteaders.
Notice of intend to file is a very powerful document for sure!

We should be set up and running in a few months time then I will contact you here and invite you over for a visit.
Just picked up a Ranch close by the site not large just 38 acres and a 3 Br house on it, good views sturdy house. So there will be space.
High time we sink a few.
Andy
Diamond Digger
Hi All
Thanks for your input very informative.

Swiss will do a few pics no worries there. Will post soon.
Have fun out there
Andy
CP
QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ Jun 7 2015, 02:41 PM) *
As for the Gov owning the mineral rights... well they do most of it, not that they will work it, it was just never given to the homesteaders.


That statement is incorrect........ sadno.gif stop.gif

Surprising no one else has said this yet...... confused0082[1].gif I know our club members know otherwise! CP_Member.gif
Maybe you mean leasable minerals with which the leases must pay royalties.

Just had to clarify that for this website's readers, makes a huge difference in one's perception if understood properly and around here that is the main goal! soldier.gif
Clay Diggins
This is the best discussion of subsurface rights I have ever seen on an internet prospecting forum. Very good answers showing a good working knowledge of a very complex subject.

Keep up the good work! thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
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