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Access to my claim over PVT land
Diamond Digger
post May 13 2015, 01:09 PM
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Hi,
I know this has been discussed before anyone has the link?
I have several claims on FS land but cannot get hold of the PVT land owner over who's land I must travel to my claims?
Ideas?
We need to get in asap?
Anyone can pinpoint a law I can refer to?
Thanks
Andy
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Yoda
post May 13 2015, 02:13 PM
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Andy,

I believe this is the link to the information you are looking for. Lots of good info regarding access rights.

http://www.coloradoprospector.com/forums/i...?showtopic=4304

The quick and dirty of it is that private lands are private lands... and can be restricted (within reason) as the owner sees fit. However, that doesn't mean they necessarily own the road. If they do, then the road is their land as well, meaning traffic is subject to their approval. If there is no road at all, then you are at the mercy of the land owner's prior approval, even to walk through.

But if there is a public road (to include forestry service roads, county roads, etc) and it is on their land, then you have every right to utilize it to pass on through (but not a right to stop or deviate from the road until off their land).


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MikeS
post May 13 2015, 04:20 PM
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I am sorta confused Diamond Digger. If you have claims back there how did you access them in the first place? Were the claims purchased from someone else without you visiting them first?


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Diamond Digger
post May 14 2015, 02:22 AM
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MikeS

We claimed by Helicopter but it seems the closed road is a FS road.
Andy




QUOTE (MikeS @ May 13 2015, 05:20 PM) *
I am sorta confused Diamond Digger. If you have claims back there how did you access them in the first place? Were the claims purchased from someone else without you visiting them first?

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Denise
post May 14 2015, 06:33 AM
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Great answer Yoda!! happy088.gif

Hi Andy!
I'm still confused on how you were able to stake a claim here when you are a citizen of the U.K.?
One must be a U.S. citizen or working for a U.S. corporation to stake a claim in the U.S.


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Yoda
post May 14 2015, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE (Mrs.CP @ May 14 2015, 07:33 AM) *
One must be a U.S. citizen or working for a U.S. corporation to stake a claim in the U.S.


Or have had declared intention to become a U.S. citizen as a legal immigrant, or be acting as an agent (paid or otherwise) for a declared claimant (whether U.S. citizen or a U.S. corporation). The latter example of which would mean it wouldn't be "his" claim, but the claimant could certainly give him permission to utilize the claim thereafter.

Given the use of a helicopter, my guess would lie in the realm of corporate affairs, but there a more than a handful of other possibilities (like dual citizenship, or being a U.S. Citizen who normally lives/is stationed abroad.)


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Diamond Digger
post May 14 2015, 02:21 PM
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No sinister workings.
I am working for and with a US corporation.
Still looking for the law that grants access to a mining claim over private land, I did see a post here at some time but cannot find it again.
The guy posted and said he is the land owner and a miner wants to use his road what can he do to stop the miner, someone quoted a law and said he must allow the miner access to his claim.
I spend hours looking for that post, can't find it.
Thanks for your interest and time.
Andy

QUOTE (Yoda @ May 14 2015, 01:29 PM) *
Or have had declared intention to become a U.S. citizen as a legal immigrant, or be acting as an agent (paid or otherwise) for a declared claimant (whether U.S. citizen or a U.S. corporation). The latter example of which would mean it wouldn't be "his" claim, but the claimant could certainly give him permission to utilize the claim thereafter.

Given the use of a helicopter, my guess would lie in the realm of corporate affairs, but there a more than a handful of other possibilities (like dual citizenship, or being a U.S. Citizen who normally lives/is stationed abroad.)

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MikeS
post May 14 2015, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ May 14 2015, 04:21 PM) *
No sinister workings.
I am working for and with a US corporation.
Still looking for the law that grants access to a mining claim over private land, I did see a post here at some time but cannot find it again.
The guy posted and said he is the land owner and a miner wants to use his road what can he do to stop the miner, someone quoted a law and said he must allow the miner access to his claim.
I spend hours looking for that post, can't find it.
Thanks for your interest and time.
Andy


Well Andy, I have not seen that topic you are searching for or I would point you to it. For your access issue I would start by finding out if that is indeed a public road or not. The local Forest Service Office may be able to help you with that question. I am not aware of a law that would require a property owner to give you access through their property. If the road in question is not public, you may be limited to the helicopter or hiking in from the closest public access that avoids trespassing on private property. Hope this helps.


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fenixsmom
post May 14 2015, 09:03 PM
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The only time I can think of someone having to lawfully allow people access to their private property is for a ranching for wildlife grant. That's hunting though.
For an unpatented claim you need to allow access to the claim except some 100+ feet from your working mineral discovery.
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GeoMatt
post May 17 2015, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ May 13 2015, 03:09 PM) *
Hi,
I know this has been discussed before anyone has the link?
I have several claims on FS land but cannot get hold of the PVT land owner over who's land I must travel to my claims?
Ideas?
We need to get in asap?
Anyone can pinpoint a law I can refer to?
Thanks
Andy




Either track the landowner down and obtain an access agreement (usually requires $, and there is no guarantee that the landowner will consent), or go rent that helicopter again (again, usually requires $). There is no way to skirt the issue. If it is a landlocked federal parcel, you already knew that before you staked it. I do agree though it is a pain to have to hike in for miles, when there is a private road that runs right next to a claim. Been there, done that.
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swizz
post May 17 2015, 08:22 AM
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If there's a way to legally "hike in" (for miles)..... I would probably focus on that.
File a Plan Of Operation with the BLM and improve that access so you can get in by Truck, Jeep, ATV, or motocross bike.
If you can afford heli rides .... you can certainly afford to bust a navigable trail or road. Chain saws, winches, stump pullers, and sweat.


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Yoda
post May 17 2015, 09:09 AM
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Andy,

See if this link was the one. http://www.coloradoprospector.com/forums/i...hl=private+land

It doesn't really change any of the answers, but it does try to work through how RS 2477 does and does not apply (and the room for interpretation is pretty wide between judges). The bottom line of it is that it would be very difficult to guarantee an outcome with use of this specific law as basis to overrule the rights of a private land owner. Without the private land owner's approval, this would probably have to be resolved in court, with a great deal of burden of proof (and numbers you probably won't be able to produce unless that road is being used on a regular basis by the public ... which it sounds like it isn't) falling to your company.

It would be a risk, something I wouldn't even bother trying on a road that is claimed as private but nobody has shown any intent to use except by your company; but maybe your corporation's legal counsel can help you decide what route you'll ultimately be taking from this point, and/or knows something we don't. (And if they do end up knowing that something, please let us know!)

Swizz likely has the right of it: resources might be better applied by creating an access, either by leasing access rights to the road from the owner, or filing plans/building a new access on public grounds. Naturally, the cost of either means of creating that access will have to be weighed heavily against the minimum expected yield of the claim (which means you'll want a geologist to weigh in on the claim's yield value, presuming your company doesn't like to take "wildcat play" risks on prospecting/mining.)

It's a tough answer, but this is why it is so important to establish proper access while researching any area to claim. And when you are requiring operating with a profit yield, that access is much more important from the standpoint of costs of impact should the road be lost for use. Most companies will ensure they have taken steps to ensure those roads stay available, either by working with the county or any existing land owners with leases... and naturally, that work would probably prove an ongoing effort for the life of the mine.

Unless you have proof for certain that the road is open to the public, I would be hammering away at a lease deal with the private owner that provides said owner a comfort level that their land is protected, speaks to any misgivings they may have, gives them enough of a taste for granting access (ie, pay them enough so they will feel inclined to renew the deal later), and finally gives your company guarantee of access (at least along that stretch of road) for a specific length of time.


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Diamond Digger
post May 24 2015, 07:32 AM
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Thanks all,
Problem solved there was a FS road that reach the claims. Slightly covered up but easily cleared.


However it seems that there is no law that a Miner can use to cross PVT land? How about Split Estates where the Mineral rights belong to the Gov and the topsoil to the owner? I know you can claim PVT land if the Gov owns the mineral rights. But how about access? There should be such a law somewhere.
Your efforts are appreciated.
Thanks
Andy
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swizz
post May 24 2015, 07:43 AM
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The US Government as an entity can't "own" any mineral rights, mines, or mining claims. I don't believe that is a possibility or lawful activity of theirs.
Really glad that you have worked out the access!!! Improve that road and show us some pics! char098.gif


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GeoMatt
post May 24 2015, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE (Diamond Digger @ May 24 2015, 09:32 AM) *
Thanks all,
Problem solved there was a FS road that reach the claims. Slightly covered up but easily cleared.


However it seems that there is no law that a Miner can use to cross PVT land? How about Split Estates where the Mineral rights belong to the Gov and the topsoil to the owner? I know you can claim PVT land if the Gov owns the mineral rights. But how about access? There should be such a law somewhere.
Your efforts are appreciated.
Thanks
Andy




I have dealt with split estate (private surface/federal mineral) a few places here in the west. Permission is still required from the surface owner to stake the federal mineral. Without landowner permission you are subject to trespass laws. I've known a few to do it without permission and claim ignorance if caught, and I've known some who have tried and have been met with a shotgun. Even if you already have title to mineral in a split estate situation, you still have to have permission/access agreement with the surface owner.
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