Closed area on Ark.? Options

[CP]

Thanks everyone for posting up in here and you are all very welcome. That's what the Colorado Prospector website is all about "EDUCATION" and that's for everyone who wants to have more knowledge in the field.
Very glad to hear that you will be joining the club ranks soon too Traddoerr, we'll all be looking forward to you and your families future club participation.

Boy has this thread gotten beefy with tangents and information, again good job digging in ya'll!
Lets take a look at some of the basics in the wording though before we start jumping through all the hoops presented by government officials.

Motors and wilderness areas...........I can clearly see where the wording disallows (by law) the use of "motorized vehicles" but how did hand carried type equipment get lumped into the no motorized prohibited things. A combo unit or dredge that small or chainsaw for that matter are not motorized vehicles, so why would we assume that they are prohibited, or even worse yet, believe it because the ranger we talked to said that?

Russ mentioned the CWA 404/NPDES permits that are supposedly daming dredging across the country............Here's another fine example of wording missed that would actually take dredging right out of that catagory I think.
CWA 404 permits have to do with "introduced pollutants".........What pollutant is "introduced" by dredging with hand carried equipment?
I think we all know there is no introduced pollutant so why in the world would any miner/dredger even want to apply for a permit to stop pollutants introduced if there were no pollutants introduced to start with. Just how would the water dept (CDF&G, DEQ whatever) approve such an application? By filing for the permit you've just stated you are in fact introducing "some pollutant", now they want to find it and stop it......DON'T APPLY FOR THE STUPID FRICKEN THING, JUST GET TO WORK WITHIN YOUR RIGHTS! See if they want to push you into court and prove you had "introduced a pollutant" to the judge.....I'm betting they won't be able to prove SH!T!
TSS or suspended turbidity from one dredge can in no way match mother nature so the current ploy of pollutant "stir up" won't fly either and if it did fly in court then you should have had a better lawyer!!

Has anyone figured out the "sureface resorce" question yet?
Traddoerr said......

To answer the ? what is the true managment powers of the USFS, it is surface managment, timber/agriculture use/roads & trails, any other surface disturbance that may accure, that is why one has to get a plans of operation filed with them, and then approvel, correct? And the term/law of roadless areas he said means just that, NO new roads/trails. He is trying to get more info this month and lititure that has everything in black and white.

This is very close......The FS is a "surface management agency" and their authority is over two catagories only and those are "surface resources" (the questions posed earlier), and the second being "occupancy". They have no sole discretion on roads closed or used for, although they sure can have influence on outcomes, especially when public doesn't get involved locally.
Any surface disturbances..........no not at all in fact the wording says "significant surface resource disturbance" in the law, this is why I've posed the questions about basic wording. And they are only allowed to mitigate the disturbance......not stop it by prohibiting activities across the board!

So we are still looking for the actual "surface resource" answer of the FS's two delegated authorities to manange surface use with.
By the way is mining considered a surface use?
Does the FS regulate mining or sub surface activities?
What is the "surface" considered to be?

I could go on and on but I digress for now........

It's about the basics folks, ain't no point in changing the laws to suit stupid......no offense intended to anyone reading just a point. We have to learn what there is in the law and use it first before we can ever effectively put change to them.
If your(OUR) activities as prospectors/miners don't fall into those catagories then why would we as individual allow the officials (who work for us-tax dollars) to regulate us in the field beyond their authourities delegated by law? IT'S UP TO YOU, IT'S YOUR RIGHT!!

Although much in the stupid politics world does flow west to east, the abuse of power by government officials is certainly not new and not starting in California this year. These abuses probably started about when the depts started or shortly after and some poor precendences set take decades to unravel, just like what has been and is still currently being unraveled here in Colorado concerning the FS and it's abuses dealing with mining claims for the last 4 decades!
That hype about it's all coming to your state soon does make for good fund raising efforts I guess...... Doesn't do any good to send them money though if they use it in an attempt to "change/fix" laws they do not yet understand as written. IMHO

Clearly they do not as demonstrated in several states by several clubs/groups including some here in Colorado unfortunately. These clubs/groups are continually misleading their followers into thinking recreations are rights, they are not. Or that "education" comes in a pretty magazine/dvd box set and a pan.........where's the "education" come into play?
Whilst they continually comprise (work with the officials as they like to call it) and toss their rights as claim owners to the wind (no motors used on our "tourist claim") What the hell is a tourist claim?!!! Oh bright move there using the word tourist in association with claim ownership!!
No dredging on our claims so and so club says, BLM wants us to file a POO for aggregated disturbances (gee I wonder why?)......
So it's just...........oooops no worries I guess, what's one more bad precendence gonna' do???? Or 2 or 3 ..........well there ya' have it. It's a chain reaction and yep can go coast to coast folks.
STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.....Is that how that saying goes? And are we the people so intimdated by a uniform we can't see this in the BS called "official plans and rules". They work for us and the law says how they do that job, not their personal take on things!

Pay attention everyone........it's a never ending battle and we will hand this country down to our youngsters ...... Yours and mine, lets give them something our forefathers would be proud of! A government kept in check by the only thing that ever has.......IT'S PEOPLE!!!

Dig in, pass it on and like mentioned above.....EDUCATE EM' ALL!

CP

[traddoerr]

Thanks CP & Mrs CP, were looking forward to some of the CP outings (if work allows the time).

We are trying to get all the lititure for the new laws and managment plans that were passed by Congress along with the budget bill. The road closures that are taking place have to do with the new roadless managment plan, and has given the USFS full authority to close these roads/trails, this affects allot of people and we want to have all our facts before we go head long into this (sence this is law now it may be to late) but we want to make sure the USFS isn't closing roads that aren't part of the plan, I'm letting people know were I can, as some of the changes/closures have already accured, this might be what John in the Ark. area ment when he said that there is going to be some big managment changes but wouldn't be specific, we'll see about that, always been abit of a rebel but try not to get into to much trouble .

After talking to BLM today they still have no changes in any of the areas that are open for prospecting and many other areas and didnt seem to care what the FS is doing, but did have some approved primitive areas to work on.

As for motorized equipment, one cannot use it in a wilderness area with out having approval/permit (and I believe on claims only), Our group all got tickets 7yrs ago for having a generator in hunting camp, went to court and it (law) was defined as any mechinized equipment, we lost and paid our heafty fine of $48.00+ court costs. I will find the USC,CRS that states this. This is why I asked our legal consultant about a dredger being used in the wilderness/primitive area and he said NO, not with out an approved POO or approved claim, as always I need to find out more for myself, just stubbern that way.

CP, I greatly appreciate your input and wisdom, and hope to gain some more knowledge from this site and hope that I/we can be of help as well.

[ASTROBLEME]

Mrs. CP and CP,

Your effort to educate is making a difference. I see it in the posts and responses here in your forum.

Keep up the good work!

ASTROBLEME

[CP]

Thank you Astrobleme, I appreciate you stopping in this thread to say that.

Traddoerr, you are very welcome and thank you for posting your input as well. As a group we can reflect on our personal take to what the laws read and collectively come out with a great perception on the reality of the laws written rather than a misguided opinion gotten from a uniform or someone who "thought they knew".

I had a much different experience concerning a roadless area I wanted to access just last year. I can't get into too much detail but for the sake of comparison......I had no claim in this area nor did I have access to one in the area. I just wanted to check it out a bit but there was a locked gate for the roadless crapola.
So, I stopped in the FS office and after a short discussion and a phone call to the head ranger who happened to be on the road at the time. I left with a key to the gate and a note (no permit or POO), for the weekend to take my 6,200 lb suburban loaded with highbanker combo and even was told I should take along a chainsaw because the road will be over grown as it's been closed for several years already into that roadless area.
The note was in case I happened to encounter a field officer while accessing or on the roadless area.

I posted that for comparision so anyone reading can see what a difference rights make vs recreations. I did not present myself as any type of recreationalist what so ever. I told them exactly what my intentions were and what I intended to use while doing it including the motorized. Not one word was said about the motors in that roadless area.
I'm sure I could go back to the same office and repeat it as well this year. There was a bit of hesitation when we first began the conversation and then a hard swallow because they realized I knew my rights and was acting within my rights, not something they can argue about.

CP

[traddoerr]

CP, thanks for that info.
Here is what we have for the facts, the roadless areas are areas that curently have no roads and they are to be managed that way (and all of this is still in the works of planning and public input) meaning that they(USFS) will try to keep from any new roads from being built, but, what roads are in that were never designated as a USFS road (old mining rds, logging rds,ect.) will be closed and reclaimed, not sure if this could effect the mining laws until it probably gets challenged by some one wanting to put a road in for a claim in one of these areas.

As for the new primitive areas these are areas that have been in the works (managment plan) sence old slickwillies era in office but some are just now going into effect, but in no way are exempt from the mining laws as far as we can read.

So in reality nothing has changed for the laws of mining/prospecting, but does make a difference for those of us who hunt/fish in these areas, should make the hunting better.

What I did find after a few phone call is that a few of the FS agents were not fully versed in the new plans and some even thought that they were one in the same and they are not, guess we will have to trian them on this as well.

So here is a question for you all, the USC for archological artifacts it says 100yrs and older and the CFR says 50yrs and older (USFS follows this rule), so which would you follow? and why?

[OklaPony]

Sure, just contact me in advance, IOW before you leave. I'm moving a bunch of stuff around my place, here to there and there to here and everything in the middle, so right now it's a mess and the tools I prefer using are boxed up.

Well, my plan to bring you a bucket of Arkansas mud from OK didn't ummmm... pan out, so to speak. My plans got changed a bit over the last couple of weeks and didn't allow me a trip towards Tulsa as I'd earlier expected. We'll be knocking around Leadville pretty much all of next week, I'm going to try to go to Vic's one morning, maybe two... be pleased to make your acquaintance if things work out that way.

[Coalbunny]

I would love to meet you as well OklaPony.

[OklaPony]

I would love to meet you as well OklaPony.

Well, unless you're coming to OK sometime soon we'll have to make it happen next year. I'm back home sweating it out in the heat. Leadville was a fantastic way to cool down for a bit and I'm certainly making plans to return again in 2012.

[noob]

From Leadville down is considered the Arkansas Headwaters Recreational Area (ARHA). It is jointly managed by the State of Colorado and the federal departments. The departments that have a stake in what goes on there are: Colorado State Parks, BLM, US Forest Service, CDOW & Bureau of Reclamation. The point of all of that is keep in mind that when you are talking to the BLM, or USFS, the do not exclusively decide what goes on there on that particular parcel that falls under their direct jurisdiction.

They chat amongst themselves to set policy. Behind closed doors. And their #1 focus is for that river is Commercial Rafting. 200,000+ people a year go down that river, from Granite to below Salida, in 3 short months which brings ALOT of money into town and county coffers via sales tax revenue. In addition to the pull of private rafting companies and other town merchants that benefit from the tourist dollars, you have city councils and county treasurers that are concerned baout what the BLM or USFS allows or disallows.

Businesses, towns and Chaffee County all make lots of money off of the rafting industry. To them fisherman are a sidenote and a prospector nothing more than a nuisance. Follow the money if you want to know their priorities and your future rights on that river and why your current rights are disappearing.

I'll give you an example. Every spring you can go to the Chaffee County Fairgrounds and find an invite only meeting occurring. The attendees are Colorado State Parks, BLM, USFS and all of the outfitters that have permits to commercially run the Ark. The last one I was at 3 years ago while still in the industry had a discussion about how to eliminate that pesky public from driving to a particular camp site below Salida and 'taking spots away' from the commercial companies. The discussion was intiated by the owner of WAR (Wilderness Aware Rafting in Johnson Village). He was complaining about some of his overnight trips having problems finding a camping spot at a particular location because there was road access to this public camping area and that pesky public had the audacity to actually think they had every much of a right to camp there when he felt it should be limited to only swell fellows like himself who are making money using that camp site.

What should have been said by the CSP, BLM, etc., was 'tough cookies dude, that is a public area and mom and pop and a couple kids have just as much right to accesss and use that Public Land as you, a guy making money off of using that public land, do.'

But, alas, nothing of the sort was said. I was appalled. Here I am in a closed door meeting between businesses and government, complete with a couple rangers packing heat, standing by the doors in the back of a room deciding the use of public lands and what select members of the public should be allowed to use it and how to enforce that. When did that Iron Curtain jump across the Atlantic? Just one example and I pointed out that specific company owner because he is a greedy scoundrel in my book, fellow rafter or not. So if you go commercial rafting, don't give WAR any of your hard earned money as he thinks that river is there for him to make money off of, not for anyone else to use for any other reason.

Point of all of that is to know that when you are dealing with any specific agency regarding prospecting on the Ark, there first and foremost concern as far as what is allowed and not allowed is the commercial rafting industry and I gaurantee you that the BLM and the USFS consult with eachother and CSP when deciding policy for anything that happens in the AHRA.

You can bet your bottom dollar there is more behind the reasoning of their decisions than they will every admit to you, and, of course, money is at the heart of it. The other point is that the Ark was one of three rivers I worked. Clear Creek was another. When I started, 10,000-15,000 people a year commercially rafted it. I beleive the number last year was over 50,000. Not very many commercial trips float too far below 119 due to Black Rock and Rigor Mortis rapids, but that will eventually change and when you all start seeing rafts going down below tunnels 1 & 2, get ready to lose prospecting access. I don't have much faith in Jeffco Open Space anyway. Merely a matter of time before prospecting is, as Wheatridge states, no longer congruent with Jeffco's use plan.

[leonard]

I just got back from 2 weeks of dredging on the Arkansas. As far as I know, only 2 people other than the ones on our claim, were dredging on the whole river and one of them was illegal as he was on the GPAA claims.

We had no problem getting permits. It simply took a letter from a private claim owner. They did follow up and call 2 of the out of state permit holders to verify a couple of things though and they did stop and check permits. They were nice about it though as I got there on a saturday and they let me dredge sunday and go get my permit on monday.

I heard a comment a few months ago "all of the arkansas is claimed up!" That may be so but a friend of mine just bought a 140 acre claim near Buena Vista for $5,000 and it looked like a great deal to me.

Leonard

[noob]

I heard a comment a few months ago "all of the arkansas is claimed up!"

I am new to all of this, but have read on a few forms that statement.

My interpretation of that comment is:

"I can't stake a claim on the Ark for $200.00 and have to buy one for $5000.00"

$5,000 sounds like a deal to me. I used to want to save up $5,000 to buy a raft of my own so I didn't have to be a commercial guide to play in the Ark. I think a claim would be a much better investment. The raft tries to kill you, whereas the claim puts a little gold, however insignificant amount, into your pan with out trying to kill you. And you still get to hang out in one of the coolest parts of Colorado, the Arkansas River Valley, and play in the river.

[noob]

As an off topic comment, I see your name on the site linked to from here for the Golden Optimist videos. I don't know if that is you, but whoever that is, I decided he is the Warren Miller of prospecting videos. Some funny things come out of that gentleman's mouth when he is holding the camera. Makes me laugh.

[noob]

Sorry to turbo post ...

If you don't mind answering leonard, on a claim such as that 140 acre one, I suspect that most of it is not in the river. Is one allowed to bring in a piece or two of heavy equipment like a backhoe or track excavator in there to move some dirt around? In addition to the retirement from commercial rafting, I retired from snowcat operating. I miss driving heavy equipment, winter and summer all over the side of a mountain. A potential to kill two birds with one claim there as far as the fun factor. Makes $5,000 sound even better.

[leonard]

As an off topic comment, I see your name on the site linked to from here for the Golden Optimist videos. I don't know if that is you, but whoever that is, I decided he is the Warren Miller of prospecting videos. Some funny things come out of that gentleman's mouth when he is holding the camera. Makes me laugh.

Thats me. I filed my first claim in Lefthand canyon about 14 years ago. It was optimistically called "Golden Optimist #1"

I've been fortunate to go to a lot of neat placves and prospected with a lot of neat people.

We call our small group of dredgers the CCC or Colorado Culture Connection. It's a long prospecting story from 2001.

Leonard

[russau]

if youve never had a chance to meet or dredge with Leonard or the CCC boys, you need to try to arrainge a chance todo so! itll be one youll never forget or want to miss again! Beleive me!!!