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Claim question..., many different people on one claim location??
ChrisD.
post Jul 2 2013, 04:52 PM
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Hello! I am kinda going nuts... greensmilies-025.gif

I have been to the office, got the maps, asked the questions and got dirrections (which the location she gave me for my claim was WAYYYYY off!!!, but I found it myself) I have been to the LR2000 about 2000 times and still can't figure out where the claims are... I found the township, the range and the exact sections. Only when I pull up the report there are several claims on that section (about 10 that are in the sw section, 8 in the nw section 22 in the w section...), which I can see as a possibility given the size of a section.
However in order to file a claim they ask for the "exact" location to the feet, which Ok, is done via GPS...

So the land I want to claim to dig, there is only one sign for a claim in the 1 mile area that I have seen, and this one claim was posted back in 2000. the LR2000 did confirm that that one is "active" however there are also about 50 other claims in the two sections I am looking in. How do I walk the area not seeing ANY other claim signs, not knowing if I am on someone elses claim and at the same time trying to file a claim for myself when the people at the BLM office tell me to find the location first??? I have also found a claim in the area that has been abandoned (again via LR2000) but I have NO idea where its exact location is.

How on Gods Green Earth do I know if I am claim jumping on someones claim if they don't post their signs?? (and can I take their claim if it isn't posted?? (LOL of course!! I know ya can't...) Anyone that can shed some light for me would help :) I am calling BLM tomorrow morning anyway, but just thought I would post here to see if anyone has any answers that has been through it...
Thanks so much!!!

-Christina
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ChrisD.
post Jul 2 2013, 05:44 PM
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OK, so I found a detailed description in the Serial Register page, but it too doesn't make much sense... One page shows the plot as 20 acres and is ne, nw, sw, se... another claim is 20 acres and is sw... just weird to me... Ok, well I will just call tomorrow and have them explain it :D
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swizz
post Jul 2 2013, 06:18 PM
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Hi Chris,
Do you know how to communicate MTRS data?
Meridian, Township, Range, Section
That's a start.

Claim owners aren't required to post signs. They are required to post a discovery marker (Cert Of Location) and corner boundary markers when the claim is staked but not required to maintain them. Anyone prospecting in the field is responsible for knowing the status of the land prior to sampling. Claim boundary maps vary per claim owner. Some are hand-drawn... some are intricate. The only places you will find the actual mapping is at the County Clerk/Recorder or Lakewood BLM Headquarters Public Room. You can pull individual claim files (where the claim owner's mapping and location description is) and copy them for future use (small fee). You can request these files by Claim Owner Name or CMC Number.
You will not find claim boundary mapping online, it doesn't exist. You must visit a public records room and search the old fashioned way. research.gif


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leonard
post Jul 3 2013, 08:29 AM
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This may help you read the claim descriptions.

Attached Image


Leonard
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Caveman
post Jul 3 2013, 08:53 AM
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ARRRRGGGGHHHHH! Brain hurts! caveman.gif


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swizz
post Jul 3 2013, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Caveman @ Jul 3 2013, 09:53 AM) *
ARRRRGGGGHHHHH! Brain hurts! caveman.gif

LOL... agree
Leonard's image is a definition of various generic claim layouts but not an accurate description of actual claim boundaries in the field. Claims often run into other Sections and boundaries are seldom laid out nice and neatly bordering Section Grids facing perfectly North and South.
The only way to obtain accurate individual claim boundary descriptions and real mapping is to physically search Public Records (searched per claim).


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ChrisD.
post Jul 4 2013, 07:58 AM
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Yeah, drove down to Canon city on Monday and spent 3 hours for nothing, they gave me wrong info... So I drove up to the BLM office in Longmont (I think that is where it was, north of Littleton anyway) and spent 6 hours there printing out paperwork then brought it home and went nuts some more. I am now in a straight jacket sitting in the corner... :P

I really don't see how in the WORLD anyone who wants to rock hound with a 4 year old and a 6 year old trying to find some pretty rocks while picnicking has to first spend hours upon days trying to see if they are 'claim jumping'... I guess at least I am trying. (understand I would like to file for a claim for our family so we could find some nice jewelry quality stones at the same time and have a regular dig site for generations to come)

I thought there had to be markings? Per BLM: "The mining claim corners must be clearly marked or staked. Federal law requires that mining claim/site boundary corners must be distinctly and clearly marked to be readily identifiable on the ground (43 CFR 3832). " If I look at the claim sheets I got, there are several claims that when I walked around there is nothing. I know this specific section is claimed and will not go on there. There was a fire there two years ago, maybe the stakes burned, but shouldn't that have been adequate time for them to re-stake them? Can they be re-claimed by someone else if they are not staked for a certain amount of time? I will have to ask...
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ChrisD.
post Jul 4 2013, 08:18 AM
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Oh and sorry, this should have been posted originally in the laws section :o

But I did read through quite a few posts there and understand quite a bit more now. :)
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CP
post Jul 4 2013, 08:45 AM
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Hi Christina,

Great work on your part digging into the research and don't give up! It's well worth your time and will get much easier once you get the techniques down. Then you will be able to fulfill your dream of claim ownership successfully. happy088.gif
It's a pain but it's absolutely necessary to verify the lack of claims (open ground) prior to any prospecting or rockhounding (mineral sampling) in the field. Since the minerals to be sampled could be "claimed" in which case that would not be a good place to sample...obviously as you've already demonstrated you wish to avoid. No one wants a grumpy claim owner yelling at them while out trying to have a picnic and do some sampling.

You'll find many claims unmarked in the field unfortunately.....this does not make the claims invalid though. The federal requirement is for corners to be marked when staked but as Swizz said earlier, there is no requirement for maintaining those markers after initial staking of the claim. Some may have been burnt by fires, many are knocked down by other people (vandals), as well as the worst of them all......paper filers. GRR!!
These paper filers as I call them, are the folks who only paper file a claim via finding closed out claims in LR2000, refile them and then sell them on ebay or the likes.......these claim filers most times have never visited the ground/claim in person, therefore could not have ever made a discovery, or "staked" the claim as law requires (corners, location cert.), let alone verify that it was in fact open to begin with! Be very very cautious of those paper filers/sellers!

No you can't file over another claim just because the markers were not found, that claim owner still has a valid claim (when staked/filed properly), and their timeline will win out in the end if you overfile on it.
The trick is to find the boundries of any exsisting claims in areas you have interest to prospect, know where you are on the ground when in the field and then you'll know where you can dig without worry and sample away!!
thumbsupsmileyanim.gif emoticon-misc-004.gif

Leonards example image for reading descriptions should give you the idea once you've read a description with 1/4 sections etc. (Thanks Leonard)
What I've found that helps me when trying to read those in descriptions is to read them backwards from the way they are written out. Sounds crazy greensmilies-025.gif but it helps, then read it forwards and see if it works out the same. Basically it's just 1/4 of 1/4 of 1/4 pieces to narrow down the scale of the actual claimed ground into a "section description". The 1/4 section dice up description doesn't usually equate to the actual boundries though.

It will also help to understand and know in the field which type of claims were filed as in lode or placer. Either would be staked on the ground differently as to the geologic layout of the deposit in question, and then there are mill site claims as well.

Any recently staked/filed claims done properly should still be marked in the field (barring fires etc), if they are not then they could be some of those paper filers!

Not sure if you are a club member or not yet either but if not you'd probably really enjoy the club. We concentrate all our efforts for club members who wish to learn exactly what you are diving into. Again great job on your part and don't give up! research.gif In the future you'll be very glad you learned about the land researching if you like to prospect.

No worries on the thread placement either, I just moved it to the laws and regulations section.


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leonard
post Jul 4 2013, 12:47 PM
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"Leonards example image for reading descriptions should give you the idea once you've read a description with 1/4 sections etc. (Thanks Leonard)"

We've found that most placer claims are filed dividing down from a section, 640 acres. We print out a topo map with section lines and the divide the section into quarters. That gets you down to 160 acre chunks. Divide a 160 acre chunk into quarters and that gets you down to 40 acre chunks. Divide a 40 acre chunk in half, vertically or horizontally and you have a standard 20 acre claim. Once you've gone through that a few times it gets a lot easier. We have a 15 acre claim and that adds a little more complexity. We also have a claim that is a little over 7 acres and defined by "metes and bounds". That has about 7 sides that are defined by directions and distances.

We've found that in most cases, our corner posts and discovery markers don't last a month before they are tore down. The only exception is one of our claims on the Arkansas and it's stayed posted for quite a few years. There are always some people that walk right by the signs anyway and claim it's a GPAA claim even though the signs say Not a GPAA Claim.

Leonard
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russau
post Jul 5 2013, 05:47 AM
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haveing a claim would be a great thing to have. but the responsibility/liability of haveing it would be big. people comeing onto your claim(legally) and doing irresponsible (illegal)things (digging holes/leaveing trash/toilet time/chopping trees down/ETC./and leaveing it would a real pain/problem! the gov. agenceis only have you to blaime for these problems, even though you didnt do these. how would you (as a claim owner) defend yourself from these citations that you didnt do. a person cant be on these claims watching them all the time!
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CP
post Jul 12 2013, 10:17 AM
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I'll have to disagree on that one Russ. The gov could not hold a claim owner responsible for any damages done (trash, holes, tree cutting etc) without having proof of that claim owner/person actually comitting the alleged crimes.
If a claim owner had a part in or they had proof of their part then that's a whole different ball game.....no proof then it's just wild accusations. Don't think that will hold up in court anywhere.

Claim ownership does not create a liability in this regard. IMHO


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russau
post Jul 13 2013, 03:06 AM
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so, when a ranger or some other gubermint type comes on to your claim(with a attitude) and finds trash/litter , spots where someone did their business complete with T.P., dug holes and didnt fill them in and then decides thats "you" did this because its your claim and your there and cites you despite your contradictions/comments and you end up in court still saying that it wasnt you. even if you could prove that it wasnt you,you still have spent sometime from what you normally do (missing work) then i would call that a liability! im just wanting to know how would a person keep a situation like this from happening? esspecially if your not there to keep a eye on this claim?
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leonard
post Jul 13 2013, 02:09 PM
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The BLM on our Arkansas River claims have been very good to work with. There are unimproved camp sites on one of our claims that are heavily used buy the river rafters camping. The BLM knows this and tend to keep a close eye on them. They've never approached us about a mess around those sites. They watch them closely and nail the "bad guys".

Leonard
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russau
post Jul 14 2013, 04:24 AM
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i agree with you completely on this! but ive heard stories about other states were the owners get messed with by certain gubermint agencies.
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