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Location Certificates, Claim Jumper
Gold Hill Miner
post Apr 24 2013, 05:38 PM
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I have a mess. BLM did a meets and bounds survey in my area and changed my property lines after 150 years. I have been on the same claims for over 26 years. In the last year I have uncovered every original property marker according to my deeds from the 1800's. Someone intentionally obliterated all of them. Now that same person is trying to prevent me from getting any corrections with violence. BLM recorded no evidence of almost all of them in their survey in 2003. They reset markers. After a year and a half of trying to figure out what happened I realized I just had to prove my shafts and tunnels to the mines have not moved. I own 3 seperate pieces of property. On 2 of those properties I own the mineral rights and the surface rights. On one I own all the mineral rights and only some of the surface rights. If I fix the one with the partial surface rights all the rest will fall back into place. My question is, do I just need the location certificates to get BLM to make the correction. Surveyors say" BLM changed your property lines now live with it." No one will pay any attention to the mine shafts and tunnels which I do not understand. The claim jumping started around 2001. I would not have noticed but the whole area burned in the Fourmile Fire including my home and all my land. When I came home to rebuild my lines had moved. In Boulder County you can encroach on someones land for 18 years and then it is yours. The fire happened only 10 years after the encroachment started. The claim jumper figured I would never know. I still have time to fix this. Boulder County had the location certificates and everything measures correctly according to the certificates and plats according to my property description. Do I need new ones? BLM has now given the claim jumper our property without verifying the shafts, tunnels and location certificates. The claim jumper had 4 structures in trespass on one claim and moved his property lines so he would not have to purchase his trespass issues. No one at Boulder county will help and BLM wants me to file a protest against their 2003 meets and bounds survey. BLM also pinned my horseshoe pit pins almost 100' away from the real line. Help! Even lawyers want me to file quiet title actions in federal court. BLM says they have no money to fix anything and I am just getting a run around.
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Gold Hill Miner
post Apr 24 2013, 05:42 PM
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One more thing. I just want this fixed quietly and peacefully. I am willing to bare the cost to have surveyors fix it. I do not want to end up in federal court. I will if I have to.
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swizz
post Apr 24 2013, 06:23 PM
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Hi Gold Hill Miner and welcome to CP. sign0016.gif
I sounds like you have two separate problems here.
1. The claim jumper
2. Private property lines vs County
I can offer advice regarding the claim jumper but someone else (hopefully Dan) can chime in on the private property issue.
Claim Jumper:
Regardless of your boundary markers having been destroyed or moved... THE BOUNDARIES REMAIN THE SAME as stated in your County and BLM filing records. Claim owner is required to properly post a Location Cert and Boundary Markers upon initial filing and record as per protocol (including map, etc). Once this is on file with the County and BLM it cannot change unless amended by the claim owner. This is legal evidence, period... regardless of vandalized, moved, or stolen physical markers. There is no law stating that a claim owner is required to maintain the markers once they have been properly placed during initial filing. I have amended my claim filings to include GPS coordinates.... not necessary but a good idea.
To get rid of anyone in violation of Mineral Trespass: There are several ways to deal with claim jumpers. I prefer not to approach them if it is obvious what they are doing. As a fellow claim owner I suggest collecting evidence with a quality camera or video surveillance if you have that option. The County Sheriff is responsible for law enforcement upon mineral claims. This is who you need to call, especially if the suspect(s) can be caught in the act. If they are busted you are entitled to pursue compensation for estimated mineral loss, estimated reclamation, court costs, etc.
Now... hopefully someone can give you advice regarding your private property lines. That's a little deeper.


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Gold Hill Miner
post Apr 25 2013, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (swizz @ Apr 24 2013, 08:23 PM) *
Hi Gold Hill Miner and welcome to CP. sign0016.gif
I sounds like you have two separate problems here.
1. The claim jumper
2. Private property lines vs County
I can offer advice regarding the claim jumper but someone else (hopefully Dan) can chime in on the private property issue.
Claim Jumper:
Regardless of your boundary markers having been destroyed or moved... THE BOUNDARIES REMAIN THE SAME as stated in your County and BLM filing records. Claim owner is required to properly post a Location Cert and Boundary Markers upon initial filing and record as per protocol (including map, etc). Once this is on file with the County and BLM it cannot change unless amended by the claim owner. This is legal evidence, period... regardless of vandalized, moved, or stolen physical markers. There is no law stating that a claim owner is required to maintain the markers once they have been properly placed during initial filing. I have amended my claim filings to include GPS coordinates.... not necessary but a good idea.
To get rid of anyone in violation of Mineral Trespass: There are several ways to deal with claim jumpers. I prefer not to approach them if it is obvious what they are doing. As a fellow claim owner I suggest collecting evidence with a quality camera or video surveillance if you have that option. The County Sheriff is responsible for law enforcement upon mineral claims. This is who you need to call, especially if the suspect(s) can be caught in the act. If they are busted you are entitled to pursue compensation for estimated mineral loss, estimated reclamation, court costs, etc.
Now... hopefully someone can give you advice regarding your private property lines. That's a little deeper.
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Gold Hill Miner
post Apr 25 2013, 05:30 PM
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Thank You! I just needed to know what would work with the BLM. I need them to agree to let me fix the property lines or they can. The lines are the claims. The County does not have a clue about anything on mining claims. They are more then happy to issue permits for mining. They did say they did not care where anyone built as long as an engineer signs off on a project. Now they are letting the claim jumper build on property BLM sold to me also. I also noticed it is basically a slap on the wrist for destroying property markers on mining claims. I think it is 250.00 a marker. It is a terrible shame when these are historic and had been there over 150 years. We even found baring tree signs ripped down or trees intentionally cut. Since Location Certificates are legal and binding documents I hope BLM will do the right thing. As far as the County goes including the Sheriff they keep saying the violence from the claim jumping neighbor is a civil matter. I have verified it is definitely a criminal matter! These claims in this area were also verified 11 times over 100 years until BLM recorded no evidence of the markers in 2003. They say they went off a claim corner which worked for them. Well claim corners can move. Why wouldn't they use location certificates in the first place in such a historic mining area? We barely get phone reception up there so I also don't believe that GPS is all that acurate either. Any advise on how to present the protest with the location certificates to BLM? You don't just walk in to a bunch of good old boys and tell them they are wrong.
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swizz
post Apr 25 2013, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (Gold Hill Miner @ Apr 25 2013, 06:30 PM) *
Any advise on how to present the protest with the location certificates to BLM? You don't just walk in to a bunch of good old boys and tell them they are wrong.

"Good old boys"?? Screw that... they are Federal employees that work for YOU. (pardon my French sir)
Reconstruct your Boundary Markers and Location Cert Marker exactly as per your original description on your County and BLM files. Wouldn't hurt to mark GPS coordinates.
That's that... those are your boundaries, PERIOD. If someone (BLM, County, or claim jumpers) wants to challenge that fact they can pull your files from the BLM or County records. If they want to challenge you in court then bring those public records to court and show the judge. Pretty plain and simple.
As far as the illegal structures that sprouted within your claim boundaries... destroy them or use them as evidence if you are trying to build a case. Is this a patented claim?
Regarding claim jumpers and enforcement... Mineral Trespass is a Federal matter and considered a minimal Class C Felony. Federal violations are to be handled by the respective County Sheriff's Dept. If they won't cooperate or understand that this is their responsibility I might suggest contacting the State Police for further advice. If they are not delegated to handle it, I bet they would know which department is. I wish I was nearer and I could physically help you resurrect those markers. That really gets my goat.
If this were the old west (and I often wish it were) I think that this claim jumping matter would have already been handled by whipping, exile, hangin'... or worse. char092.gif


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CP
post Apr 27 2013, 11:15 AM
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Boy that sure does sound like a can o' worms for sure Gold Hill Miner!

Are these patented mining claims? I'm assuming they are but then you said "BLM sold them to you"....this doesn't sound right.
If they are patented claims then those boundries would be well established in old records even if field markers are lost. Surveying laws are very old and well understood that any new survey or more accurately "resurvey" must be done from exsisting or known survey markers in the field. No one.....not even a surveyor can just "move pins/markers" cause they want to.
It's a felony to remove or deface any survey markers. Surveyors are also required to file their entire survey (including field notes) within one year of complettion to BLM. So that means any survey pin you find with id number can be looked up at BLM's office in it's entire content with field notes...even ones from way way back.
You'll be searching on microphish in their office to get the records and then paying by the page for copies but you could then show/prove where the old surveyors put the pins/markers as well as get the moving surveyors field notes as to why the adjustments were made.
What's on the ground will take precedence if left long enough without contesting by the encroached upon (you).....the government doesn't care and yes at this point it becomes a civil matter between two owners. Without your re-assertion they will win.

What is also troubling......it's sounds to me like there could be a possibility of gov officials using their office/job to violate rights and actually take property from a citizen? You might also want to bone up on the RICO act which if I remeber it right is used to prosecute gov officials who abuse their authority in such manners......within this act you not only can sue the dept but also the individual and be compensated from their personal $$!

I would say you definately do not need any new location certs done.....again, I'm still wondering about the claims themselves......Location claims (unpatented) would have location certificates.
You stated you lived on them so I'm still thinking you are on patented claims.

Another thing you could do is once you've got the older files/field notes and the new ones......Hire your own surveyor to at least review the files first and then possibly redo/re-establish the old survey in the field if they feel the new to be bullshit.
When I worked on the survey party, it was always paramount to find exsisting field markers and work from them....basically redo/re-establish current to work any surveys period!

I'm no lawyer but hopefully the info we've offered here can give you a hand and good luck with this....sounds like you had a rough go of it so far.
Welcome to the forum also, we'll be looking forward to positive updates on your progress.

CP


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Gold Hill Miner
post May 6 2013, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (ColoradoProspector @ Apr 27 2013, 01:15 PM) *
Boy that sure does sound like a can o' worms for sure Gold Hill Miner!

Are these patented mining claims? I'm assuming they are but then you said "BLM sold them to you"....this doesn't sound right.
If they are patented claims then those boundries would be well established in old records even if field markers are lost. Surveying laws are very old and well understood that any new survey or more accurately "resurvey" must be done from exsisting or known survey markers in the field. No one.....not even a surveyor can just "move pins/markers" cause they want to.
It's a felony to remove or deface any survey markers. Surveyors are also required to file their entire survey (including field notes) within one year of complettion to BLM. So that means any survey pin you find with id number can be looked up at BLM's office in it's entire content with field notes...even ones from way way back.
You'll be searching on microphish in their office to get the records and then paying by the page for copies but you could then show/prove where the old surveyors put the pins/markers as well as get the moving surveyors field notes as to why the adjustments were made.
What's on the ground will take precedence if left long enough without contesting by the encroached upon (you).....the government doesn't care and yes at this point it becomes a civil matter between two owners. Without your re-assertion they will win.

What is also troubling......it's sounds to me like there could be a possibility of gov officials using their office/job to violate rights and actually take property from a citizen? You might also want to bone up on the RICO act which if I remeber it right is used to prosecute gov officials who abuse their authority in such manners......within this act you not only can sue the dept but also the individual and be compensated from their personal $$!

I would say you definately do not need any new location certs done.....again, I'm still wondering about the claims themselves......Location claims (unpatented) would have location certificates.
You stated you lived on them so I'm still thinking you are on patented claims.

Another thing you could do is once you've got the older files/field notes and the new ones......Hire your own surveyor to at least review the files first and then possibly redo/re-establish the old survey in the field if they feel the new to be bullshit.
When I worked on the survey party, it was always paramount to find exsisting field markers and work from them....basically redo/re-establish current to work any surveys period!

I'm no lawyer but hopefully the info we've offered here can give you a hand and good luck with this....sounds like you had a rough go of it so far.
Welcome to the forum also, we'll be looking forward to positive updates on your progress.

CP
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Gold Hill Miner
post May 6 2013, 01:57 PM
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I have been trying to get a survey company to quote me on GPS coordinates to go along with one of my Location Certificates. I just need to provide proof to the BLM that one of my 5 patented mines did not move. Then BLM will give me permission to resurvey, repin all of my claims. The one on the most western edge if reset will move all the rest back into place. I was just quoted 5-8000.00 for GPS coordinates, corners set and a plat. I only asked for coordinates to go along with the Location Certificate. The shaft and tunnel are well exposed. Any recommendations on who I call. Am I better off getting a new location certificate for one mine? Would that be cheaper then the coordinates? Am I just be taken for a ride by another Boulder surveyor? The words Location Certificate seem to be ignored constantly in this situation. BLM says all that matters is what is on the ground (shafts and tunnels) Then while standing on my shaft they said all that matters are corners. What the F.?
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russau
post May 8 2013, 06:53 AM
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i would assume that the $5-8000. would be a deductable expense. wouldnt it??
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CP
post May 8 2013, 08:31 AM
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I still think you need to dig up the original survey notes from the original claim work as I posted previously. A third survey at this point will only further complicate the situation if it's not done to re-establish the original markers/pins.
You don't need permission from BLM to survey either......it's your money that hires a surveyor and law requires all surveys done by licensed surveyors to be entered into the BLM database....not just the ones BLM says okey dokey too. They (BLM) do review the surveys for completeness before acceptance but all surveys are entered into the database.

Yes you should definately get another surveyor (maybe different county) and maybe not mention the location certs to them......might be too confusing to a surveryor in todays world. You need a survey of the old original survey, personally I would dig up those records at BLM myself and attempt to re-track the field notes to the old markers/pins on the ground first. Then possibly hire the surveyors to re-establish those original markers/boundries in the field.
Of course taking digital photo records of all markers (new and old) found to show the different placements you've described. Take a gps along with you as well and record your own cords.

Your patented claims (lodes) are a specific size and shape by law which was of course orientated along the dyke or ore body involved......ie inclination or declination and direction of the mineral deposit dictated where the lode claim was laid out.
The dig site (tunnel) would have been centered in the claim.
They sure didn't move the tunnel or the ore body so it should be obvious in the field if they moved your boundries as now this tunnel site would not be centered on the claim as it's supposed to be......and BLM should know that!!

Sounds like the run around to me still......I'd read up on that RICO act too.......BLM should not be abusing the office to intimidate property owners into giving up thier property!

Whew 5-8k.......WOWSER!! smiley-shocked003.gif
They sure aren't getting any cheaper on the surveys are they?


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russau
post May 9 2013, 04:13 AM
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Dans suggestion seems tobe the best/easiest way out of this mess! i like the suggestion of looking into the Rico report!
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Gold Hill Miner
post Jun 15 2013, 09:33 PM
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I hired a survey co. to record the GPS coordinates on one of my claims. They emailed me back 1 sheet of plain paper with 12 points, 1 sheet of 12 GPS coordinates and some photos. Point 7 missing on all. Plain white sheets of paper, no lines and not even on their letterhead. No mine claim name even. They said they won't back it up. But they want a thousand bucks. They want 5000 more to put it on a plat. I went to Boulder County GIS to pick up a copy of BLM's plat the county used and they threw it out is what they said. It is on BLMs website and i think the survey co. can use it instead of coming out and charging 5000.00 more. It is clear as could be the BLM set my new lower corners 150' E. There are no shafts and tunnels at all on what BLM pinned. They are fully exposed to the west. i do have the deed, the original plat and the location certificate showing exact measurements.
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Attached File  Plot.pdf ( 291.03K ) Number of downloads: 98
 
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CP
post Jun 20 2013, 09:13 AM
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The new gps cords are from the old claim paper work or onsite monuments or the new survey?
For 1k I would hope it was onsite actual monuments (rock piles) gps points with your walk around that single claim. If so then comparing those points with your old survey notes should help. You've kinda' given little info on your update as to what was recorded on the gps points so I'm just guessing.
Your old paperwork/surveys is where you'll find the real answer as I've already said earlier in this thread.Even with new gps cords/surveys etc......You'll still need to prove your older timeline to re-establish/prove those boundries prior to the said moving of the markers.


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Gold Hill Miner
post Mar 7 2015, 01:10 PM
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Yes the claim is patented. It now looks like the claim was amended in the early 1900's. When BLM re-pinned the claim in 2003, they may have moved it back on its pre-amended location, maybe because the old markers were left in place. The claim is now on what was BLM land prior to 2003. Off the shafts and tunnels. There is a substantial spring on this location. Would a miner have to relocate because of water laws? Could an amended mine claim be cancelled 100 years later for no reason?
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