Closed area on Ark.? Options

[traddoerr]

Coalbunny, not to be nosey but does the worse getting worse have anything to do with BLM? or just the USFS? couple of us was planning on a trip this weekend up in that area.

[swizz]

Dan, I met with Morrisey (sp?) earlier. And worse just went worse.

What? You can't just leave us hangin' like that.

[Denise]

Dan, I met with Morrisey (sp?) earlier. And worse just went worse. Incoming private mail bro.

The only way it can get worse is if we all allow it too!
Hopefully Carl will come in here, and add the information he has. The best way to deal with these problems is to talk it out, and find the facts to work with.

Lots of questions in this thread still unanswered!

[traddoerr]

I wish I had more for every one, but I had to be tactful just to get out of them what I had, was suprised that I got him to mention about trying to work with BLM on closeing "mining" on the BLM adjasent to this area.

I'm new to the prospecting and all (enjoying it alot) but have been an avid fisherman in this area for 20+yrs and in the past had ran into use issues with the area departments.

My personal opinion I got from the conversation with John/Meigan, is that some recreational activities are acceptible and some aren't, due to impact(?) and general opinion.

I do NOT! agree with the decisions they made (and let them know that in a nice way), and hope that we maybe able to turn this around, but I'm getting the impression from them that they are firm on their decision, I hope not. I agree with Mrs. CP there is alot of unanswered questions on this issue.

If there is anything else I can do please let me know, as I happen to have a little time on my hands right now but not sure for how long.

Dennis

[swizz]

If there is anything else I can do please let me know, as I happen to have a little time on my hands right now but not sure for how long.

This is my situation as well... business is about to pick up again.
I'd like to hear the facts and legalities regarding this closure. Maybe they have a legitimate reason, or.....
Hard to know without viewing their documentation, which should be public. Maybe a COC or something of that nature? I've never been to the Ark.. so I remain in the dark.

[swizz]

Is this area designated as "special use", or "recreational"?
Also.... where is PLP on this?
Is this closure too small or insignificant for them to help with or address?
or... maybe the USFS is well within their rights to close the area and intervention would be futile?

(just thought I'd add even more questions to the fray )

[Hanael]

Just an opportunity to profess my ignorance but who/what is PLP...

[swizz]

"Public Lands for the People": PLP
They appear to be a well-respected and well-intentioned organization. It's very likely that they are spread a little thin right now with all of the recent attacks on land access and new land use regulations throughout the country.

add..
IMHO... it is best to learn, defend, and act upon the laws yourself. These are often statutory rights and essential knowledge. If I run into a problem on MY claim, my first move sure as hell won't be to contact an outside organization to act on my behalf. It is MY responsibility to uphold my rights. Knowledge is power... an old cliche but VERY true. I am in no way 100% up to speed on mining laws but getting there and asking questions when I need help. This site has been a fantastic resource.
Know your rights.

Sorry for the derail.
Back to the Ark closure - Carl, where are you??

[Denise]

Do not get off your soapbox folks, it's YOUR land!!

Don't let it happen across the country, it's YOUR land!!

Dig into this info folks, find out the truth and then pass it on so everyone can know, and never believe for one second that any club or special interest organization/group will "do it for you" ........either in court or the field. IT'S YOUR LAND! KNOW YOUR RIGHTS AND HOW TO ENACT UPON THEM!!!!

Dan says it all right there! Having the knowledge for ourselves is the best path.
Just check my signature.....

add..
IMHO... it is best to learn, defend, and act upon the laws yourself. These are often statutory rights and essential knowledge. If I run into a problem on MY claim, my first move sure as hell won't be to contact an outside organization to act on my behalf. It is MY responsibility to uphold my rights. Knowledge is power... an old cliche but VERY true. I am in no way 100% up to speed on mining laws but getting there and asking questions when I need help. This site has been a fantastic resource.
Know your rights.

Very well said Chris!!

[russau]

Is this area designated as "special use", or "recreational"?
Also.... where is PLP on this?
Is this closure too small or insignificant for them to help with or address?
or... maybe the USFS is well within their rights to close the area and intervention would be futile?

(just thought I'd add even more questions to the fray )

Swizz go ask them for yourself. www.PLP2.org or www.PLP1.org

[swizz]

Swizz go ask them for yourself. www.PLP2.org or www.PLP1.org

I'm not contacting anyone and am not a member of PLP. I don't know any more about the Ark situation than you do.
Some details would be nice, don't you think?
Carl dropped a bomb on this thread and then disappeared.
We still basically know nothing.
I shall remain patient until the facts are presented.

[traddoerr]

Swizz, All,
I had another talk with John Morresey this past Thursday, He said that it would be better for me to talk to Meigan who is the land and mineral specialist, So, she called me back on Friday and we had a long talk as to why they closed this small area, and her answer was the same as last time just a little more in depth this time.

They had the authority to stop the mining/rec-panning activitys because of the mineral rights withdrawl, and the reason for closing this was the complaints of the locals and the degrading of the banks from it being dug up and noise issues, and it starting to look trashey, she said that by this action (mining) they will be able to see if some or all the issues go away and if not they will have to work on further restrictions if they can, but for right now they were focusing on the mining activitys and individauls that were over staying their welcome in the 40ac area.


I asked her if there were any other areas that was planned for closeing and she said no, as they didn't have the authority because there was no other areas that were withdrawn from mineral rights in the NF of that area, asked her if there were other areas and there was NO issues would they close it and she said she couldn't answer that question.

I have looked up the laws and Goverment rights, but couldn't find anything that made sense so I talked to a legal expert at the Co. school of mines and he said he believed that they were with-in there rights to close this small area, but he would look some other things up this next week and get back to me, I will keep you posted

Carl, If you could add anything about your conversation with John to this thread that would be great.

[CP]

Thanks for posting your updates traddoerr.

Good job diggin' in for the facts everyone.
Very glad to hear that it's not concerning/closing the entire district as that would be way out of their authority.
So it's a 40 acre piece in the district that is withdrawn from mineral entry. Yes they do have the authority legally to close that off then if the withdrawl is real and it's within the "congressionally declared rec area". If one or both of those two things are not in fact true then they do not have authority to close even that small 40 acre piece.

Sad to say it sounds like from what we are all hearing is that poor prospecting habbits/field techniques and a general lack of respect for the lands status and the laws caused this issue and closure.

Once again proves that how we act as an independent prospectors in the field can and does make a difference, even at the "recreational" level.......poor wording (recreational) but one that will be recognized by many readers.
Recreation is not a right nor a resource and has nothing to do with bonafide prospecting and mining.

[swizz]

Thanks CP, that helps clarify things.
I had a feeling that this might be a designated "special use" or "recreational use" area and quite possibly within their rights to administer a recreational closure. It's unfortunate that "recreational" prospecting seems to have been singled out but possibly justifiable if what they say is true.
... as not to risk another derailment of this thread, I'll just add that I agree with you regarding the implications and negative repercussions of "recreational" labeled prospecting.
Recreational prospectors do not share the same rights as miners.

[traddoerr]

Thanks CP, The expert from the Colorado school of mines has confirmed that the forest services has the right to close this area and does have the right to close any area in the NF that has been withdrawn from mineral rights as they see fit.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but, One of the things that was said by both John and Meigan was that it is to difficult to serperate what is a rec-panner and a miner because they said that even a rec-panner would more than likely sell the gold they find instead of keeping it for personal use, this is more than likely true.

And John stated that he doesn't consider a rec-panner some one who uses anything other than a gold pan, guess that makes sence. And as mentioned in the other posts that the ones abusing the area made it look bad for the rest, thus closing any mining activities all together in this little area.

Their opinion also made me think as to how I concider my self as well (rec-panner?), WELL, I guess I can call my self a part time greenhorn-prospector (for now, as I have jumped into this with both feet), as I will only be out once in awhile PROSPECTING and if by some chance I happen to find the mother load , I would then look into filing a claim, and only then could I call myself a miner, just my opinion. But I do see were the term "recreational" could do more harm than good for the mining community, thus I will never use the term recreational in the same sentance as mining/prospecting.

I want to thank every one who chimed in on the subject.