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BUYER BEWARE! ILLEGAL REC GUIDE SERVICES
russau
post Oct 9 2014, 07:06 PM
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im sorry I brought it up.
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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 09:12 PM
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It's worthy of discussion. Forgive me for being brash... I'm a little overly passionate about land use laws (and financial exploitation of people and resources). These things are important to me.


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Denise
post Oct 11 2014, 09:21 AM
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I agree Swizz, we definitely feel the same way. That's just one of the many reasons I love this site so much....we do it right and help others understand the right way to do it! thumbsupsmileyanim.gif For an example, I see on this website people meeting up with one another to help teach them in the field....for free just because we care here.

Awesome work, it's people like you that make us proud of what the site has become!
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CP
post Oct 15 2014, 05:21 PM
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Don't be sorry Russ, you seemed to have a question in mind but maybe it would be eaier to ask a more direct question via PM first? I'll be happy to answer it if I can. PM coming at ya'. smile.gif


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swizz
post Mar 25 2016, 05:34 AM
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Bump, for the 2016 season.


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EMac
post Mar 25 2016, 12:02 PM
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Up front, I haven't had any personal run-ins with illegal guides as described. I'm going to risk stirring up the hornet's nest a bit I think though; please keep in mind my intent isn't to create drama, but rather better understand and perhaps generate some worthwhile discussion.

Reading through about unlicensed guides, I'm on board....generally in principal, but not necessarily wholly. I looked up DORA requirements to get a OUT license, and it has at least the first aid course, a bond, insurance and the app fee. It also says it doesn't guarantee you'll be registered (disclaimer about making long-term career choices based on the application submittal). I also saw it was for hunting and fishing with no mention of prospecting; I saw no permits for prospecting type stuff on DORA.

My personal experience: To get my feet literally wet with prospecting, I started out by contacting a guy with a claim up on the Arkansas (likely the same guy Leonard mentioned previously - PM). The gold bug bit me hard that day, and I moved on to further my knowledge of the subject, joining here, subscribing to ICMJ, buying equipment, meeting some local folks that compete in panning competitions, and soaking up whatever I can. I highly doubt PM was licensed and bonded as a guide, but we were also on his claim vs public lands. I absolutely loved the experience and frankly want to meet up with him again (great guy). He showed me and my son how to pan, cut us loose on his dredge most of the day, centrifuged the sluice concentrates so I had some very concentrated black sands, gave us an old black pan, vial, snuffer and offered an invite to return to his claims. PM charged me $25 for this which I'll argue all day long isn't even close to financial exploitation; I reckon he may have lost a few bucks since he was busy helping us instead of mining. I wouldn't be on this site today if it weren't for the experience. Granted my situation is different from the main discussion topic since it was his claim we were on, but I bring it up because to me very few situations are solidly black and white. I suspect there are at least a few folks in the prospecting community that had inauspicious beginnings with an illegal guide. Playing devil's advocate a bit, I'd like to try and suss out the shades of gray and better understand:

1) Is this a general disdain against prospecting guides? Even when properly credentialed (assuming there was such a credential)?
2) Is this an emotional argument, or one grounded in macro data showing a detriment to the prospecting community?
3) With the assumption that most in the prospecting community are against big government, who should enforce removing these illegal operations?
4) If a guide were offering their services for donations only, would your position shift?
5) If they changed it from "guided gold prospecting" to "we'll teach you techniques on how to recover gold" does that change your opinion?
5a) Does your answer change if they have proper business permits to rent equipment or teach a course since there is no prospecting guide license?
6) Is this primarily an issue that they're not paying for permits and taxes on money under the table (doesn't seem likely given the assumption in 2)?
7) Are you aware of any case law against illegal guides?
8) I'm also trying to contrast this position around illegal guides with say the California dredging permit. Would you argue the California dredgers are ultimately wrong and should no longer dredge unless they get a permit which the state will not grant (seemingly similar situation that there is no prospecting guide permit)?

I'm considering the financial exploitation piece, which also bugs me, but that's so ubiquitous everywhere (life in general, not just prospecting), that I wonder why focus on this extremely small population. Personally, if there was someone on Clear Creek offering a similar experience as what Phil provided for a reasonable price, permit or no, I think it would further elevate the community versus act as a bad apple.

Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much.

E



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Silky
post Mar 25 2016, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE (EMac @ Mar 25 2016, 12:02 PM) *
Up front, I haven't had any personal run-ins with illegal guides as described. I'm going to risk stirring up the hornet's nest a bit I think though; please keep in mind my intent isn't to create drama, but rather better understand and perhaps generate some worthwhile discussion.

Reading through about unlicensed guides, I'm on board....generally in principal, but not necessarily wholly. I looked up DORA requirements to get a OUT license, and it has at least the first aid course, a bond, insurance and the app fee. It also says it doesn't guarantee you'll be registered (disclaimer about making long-term career choices based on the application submittal). I also saw it was for hunting and fishing with no mention of prospecting; I saw no permits for prospecting type stuff on DORA.

My personal experience: To get my feet literally wet with prospecting, I started out by contacting a guy with a claim up on the Arkansas (likely the same guy Leonard mentioned previously - PM). The gold bug bit me hard that day, and I moved on to further my knowledge of the subject, joining here, subscribing to ICMJ, buying equipment, meeting some local folks that compete in panning competitions, and soaking up whatever I can. I highly doubt PM was licensed and bonded as a guide, but we were also on his claim vs public lands. I absolutely loved the experience and frankly want to meet up with him again (great guy). He showed me and my son how to pan, cut us loose on his dredge most of the day, centrifuged the sluice concentrates so I had some very concentrated black sands, gave us an old black pan, vial, snuffer and offered an invite to return to his claims. PM charged me $25 for this which I'll argue all day long isn't even close to financial exploitation; I reckon he may have lost a few bucks since he was busy helping us instead of mining. I wouldn't be on this site today if it weren't for the experience. Granted my situation is different from the main discussion topic since it was his claim we were on, but I bring it up because to me very few situations are solidly black and white. I suspect there are at least a few folks in the prospecting community that had inauspicious beginnings with an illegal guide. Playing devil's advocate a bit, I'd like to try and suss out the shades of gray and better understand:

1) Is this a general disdain against prospecting guides? Even when properly credentialed (assuming there was such a credential)?
2) Is this an emotional argument, or one grounded in macro data showing a detriment to the prospecting community?
3) With the assumption that most in the prospecting community are against big government, who should enforce removing these illegal operations?
4) If a guide were offering their services for donations only, would your position shift?
5) If they changed it from "guided gold prospecting" to "we'll teach you techniques on how to recover gold" does that change your opinion?
5a) Does your answer change if they have proper business permits to rent equipment or teach a course since there is no prospecting guide license?
6) Is this primarily an issue that they're not paying for permits and taxes on money under the table (doesn't seem likely given the assumption in 2)?
7) Are you aware of any case law against illegal guides?
8) I'm also trying to contrast this position around illegal guides with say the California dredging permit. Would you argue the California dredgers are ultimately wrong and should no longer dredge unless they get a permit which the state will not grant (seemingly similar situation that there is no prospecting guide permit)?

I'm considering the financial exploitation piece, which also bugs me, but that's so ubiquitous everywhere (life in general, not just prospecting), that I wonder why focus on this extremely small population. Personally, if there was someone on Clear Creek offering a similar experience as what Phil provided for a reasonable price, permit or no, I think it would further elevate the community versus act as a bad apple.

Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much.

E


Thanks for the viewpoint. I, as a complete novice, might actually be where you were when you used a "guide" as I have not actually "met" any claim holders, I have only chatted with some online. So, if a claim owner offered to show me how to do this or that on HIS claim and there was a good possibility of finding something and learning for a fee that was reasonable, I would do the same. However, he did mention that there were some legit ones as well. Problem is, how would you know? I guess it would be more trial and error if you were really that serious about it. It might be worth the risk at $25.

Silky


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CP
post Mar 25 2016, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (EMac @ Mar 25 2016, 12:02 PM) *
Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much. E


Not a problem Emac, I've got a thought or two to offer on the topic....... Starting off and getting a good experience is awesome and very glad you and others have started out successfully that way.

For me this comes to two very basic principles which in my opinion cuts the "gray" area out completely as well as explains why there is no "prospecting guide permits" issued by the State/DORA on NF or BLM lands.

First and most importantly.....there is only 1 reason a citizen can stake and hold a mining claim and that is for mining purposes only! No matter how it's laid out, charging a fee to dig or be present for lessons etc. of any kind on a location mining claim clearly is not a mining activity. Mining is a profit business venture to extract something from the earth....not other people.

Second very clear violation of the law with this kind of set up on location claims is the law that reads something about .....it's illegal to hold or charge money for any commercial venture (guide services would be that) on NF or BLM without express written permission via the proper authorized authority/department. That would be the guided permits issued by DORA such as hunting and fishing guides must have. Further thought on this train will also reveal that should the state want to create a prospecting guide permit....how would mineral ownership play out, be researched or implemented within that program. AH HA!!...... It is not possible! smiley-shocked003.gif smiley-cool14.gif

For those two main reasons I've always said and will continue to believe any fee's charged in this way (good out comes or not) are in fact illegal. The only way to have a legal guided prospecting adventure while charging a fee is to have the tours on private (patented) lands! There the owner can do what they chose in that fashion.

Clear creek (Jefferson county open space) is also private land where the owners (county) have implanted special rules about both prospecting and permitting for commercial ventures of any kind on the county's property as Swizz just posted in the other thread. thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

Beware out there folks even though it seems harmless at first, it really is not and over time only creates confusion and perpetuates more "get rich quick" scammers to try similar deals. MINING PROSPECTORS FOR THEIR MONEY IS NOT A MINING ACTIVITY!! slaphead.gif smiley-laughing021.gif

....... 2c.gif



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johnnybravo300
post Mar 25 2016, 09:09 PM
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The guy we met that day offered his services to us two or three times. I'm not saying he was a scammer but that didnt crossed my mind at the time.
He probably knows his stuff and maybe he was legit, I really have no clue. He just seemed pushy and slighly invasive to me so I got irritated with him.
I really don't have a problem with people selling services like that if there are customers interested in hiring a guide. People can spend their own money the way they want and when people have certain skills it may cost some money. That's how the world works, or is supposed to work.
The govt makes it difficult for everyone, more expensive, and they like to criminalize natural occuring industry between two willing participants. Money passing between hands is always a good thing for everyone but the crooks always demand their share. No matter how much they regulate the world and invent permits and make new rules two things never change.
There is a cash market for everything.
Prohibition doesn't work.
I didn't mean to accuse the fella of being a crook, he was just pushy and overbearing. That could just be in his nature. I didn't get bad vibes from him or anything like that but he made it clear we could hire him to find gold and that he had an open schedule. I forgot the price he quoted but he also said he keeps half the gold!
A legit hired pro would let the client keep all the gold they find. I haven't heard anything that rediculous since Bernie Sanders. Thems almost fightin words amigo.
Since its private land they can regulate it how they want and I know this. If people want to go there they should follow the rules or not get caught breaking them. He may not have known that he was breaking the rules and thought we were just tourists looking to strike it rich at any expense.
Who knows.






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Denise
post Jun 28 2016, 11:52 AM
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That time of year! signs019.gif

There is a NEW group I see on Facebook (posted on our group page) offering guided services with a name VERY similar to ours (just add an s) We are not part of this group and do not condone what they are doing. Just a heads up to those who know we like things done right here. research.gif info_grin.gif

Buyers beware!!


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swizz
post Jun 28 2016, 02:35 PM
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Ridiculous, I hope they get busted.

C.33. Commercial Activity: It shall be unlawful to conduct any commercial activity or concession, or to provide any service, product or activity for which a fee is charged, on Open Space lands, except when a valid Jefferson County Open Space Special Activity Agreement is issued.

If anyone catches them in the act while you're there:

All prospectors must adhere to all Jefferson County Open Space rules and regulations. Report active violations to Jeffco Sheriff’s non-emergency number: 303-271-0211


I'm not on facebook but if any of you who care about this are... cut and paste (to them) the blue and red quotes I posted.


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Denise
post Jun 28 2016, 03:33 PM
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This is offered for more counties than just Jefferson Chris. For claims located all over Colorado as part of the guided service.


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swizz
post Jun 28 2016, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Denise @ Jun 28 2016, 03:33 PM) *
This is offered for more counties than just Jefferson Chris. For claims located all over Colorado as part of the guided service.

Oh.... well that's actually breaking Federal Law... different ballgame, even if they own the claims. Perhaps file an inquiry or complaint to the DOI/BLM with their advertisement as proof? That may be all it takes to draw their attention to it and start an investigation. Wouldn't be hard to send an agent in as a customer, easy bust.


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MikeS
post Jun 29 2017, 05:38 PM
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Bumping this up for the 2017 season.


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