Right on! But there is another option.... Options

[Coalbunny]

I think the MRT is a great idea! You have a great deal of potential. Sadly, it's only beckoning to the calls and rants of the socialist swine that strives to rid this country of mining. So long as we are willing to fight these fights in court, they will continue. You need to study up on the specific laws governing claim ownership and your right to defend it.

Last I recall a miner has the right to protect what is *lawfully his*. A claim, under the Mining Act of 1872 (year?) is the lawfully property of the miner for the duration of the claim. Ok, WHY defend it in court? Let's see, miners are still getting arrested. Still losing what they have worked long and hard for. And they would prefer fighting it in court. Let me tell you of an excellent example of the way it should be dealt with.

Back in the late 80's there was a fella I went to church with that had several claims along the Colorado River just inside of Colorado (don't ask me to show it because 'll be damned if I couldn't find it the last couple times I tried). Ok, did he actually own those claims? After what I saw, I'd say yes. Ok, the State of Colorado, NOT the Division of Mined Land (or whatever their name is), some dumb bunch and I'm wanting to say state parks or something, quite frankly I just don't recall. Anyhow, this dumb broad (and she wasn't even blond! Go figger!) wearing some weird state uniform, hopes out of her Jeep cherokee (with state tags and decal on door) and starts yelling at him how he's not in compliance with whatever dumb law she was babbling about. Don't know how, because he never did anything more than pan the claims. Anyhow, she started getting in our way, made got to the point of blocking us from our vehicles with hers. He drew down and took a few shots at her after she refused to leave us alone and to leave his claims. He scared the crap out of her. She contacted the Mesa County Sheriff's Department, and a deputy met us at the Mack, Colorado exit of I-70. He bloxcked us from going anywhere, had his gun drawn, and after cuffing both of us started asking questions. Al made it clear those are his claims *and the state has no legal right to interfere with a legal and lawfull mining operation*. The point is in Colorado, there's this neat law called "Make my Day law". Anyone tries to unlawful remove from you what is rightfully yours, you can utilize UPTO the use of dealy force to protect yourself, your property, or your family. Don't beleive me, look up the law. Al told the sheriff that, he showed a bunch of his papers (no idea what they were, but I presume proof of claim ownership and copies of the laws. Eventually Sheriff Clauson was contacted and the issue was soon dropped and we were released. IF you need documents clarifying this, I presume the MCSO has it on file somewhere. All I can say is good luck in finding it! MCSO has never been known (from my expereience dealing with them for 20+ years) to keep good records. Maybe the computer stuff improved that, who knows. I recall being impressed though. The FIRST and the LAST time I ever found anything Clauson did to be respectable. Guess his officers were tired of stealing horses and cattle off of the Redlansds or something. Who knows? lol! Last I knew the law is still in force. I would suspect it is.

Redpaw, please don't be offended by this, instead I hope it's inspiring. If not you, hopefully someone out there. But until we actually stand up and use force to protect what is rightfully ours, whether it's a home, truck, wife or mining claim, these problems WILL continue.
Carl

[CP]

Howdy Carl,
Thought I should give some input here.

I hear what you are saying and you have a very valid point to a degree.
Can’t say that I would “never” end up in this situation as I am often armed when out, but I would certainly hope to avoid ANY situations of the type you have described.
I’m not saying that what happened was wrong, my point is that everyone has a different “level” of involvement they are comfortable with, just as they have a level of confrontation they are comfortable with, some folks don’t even like to own or carry weapons cause they are uncomfortable with it, and they certainly shouldn't carry one if they aren't comfortable doing so!
The MRT is providing information for everyone to utilize at whatever level they may be comfortable with.
COMFORTABLE being a very key word…….
WE ARE ALL WAY TOO COMFORTABLE IN LIFE TODAY!
What it’s costing is our rights!
Through history the only thing that has kept the government in check is the people.
Is that still happening today…….NO!
Today we have a forestry dept that is more worried about whether or not the damn sierra club or nature conservancy is going to sue them for some decision they make.
Will they protect your rights first?! ……… DON’T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS!

Now the MRT provides information that is submitted by us “THE PEOPLE”.
All we can hope for is that all who are comfortable with being involved have the resources to do so, at whatever level, even if it's just passing info on to someone else.

Carl I commend you for standing with Al that day, he needed someone there with him obviously.
Hopefully your post here will inspire others to be involved but please be careful when confronting officials in the field. We certainly can’t condone folks taking pot shots at officials.

I was always taught you don’t pull it unless you intend to use it………and I don’t shoot to miss! ..... :P :o

But seriously, as you stated the first thing that went away was YOUR PERSONAL FREEDOM when the sheriff found you. Some folks just aren’t willing to put theirs and their family’s freedom in jeopardy while out prospecting and enjoying what is rightfully theirs.
However they are willing to watch, read, and learn. Which in the end is better for us all…..KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!
Just knowing that you have rights and what they are is essential to not being bullied around by uniforms while in the field, and then 99.9% of the time those situations can and must be avoided.
I don’t think we need to head off on our outings and adventures with the attitude that the worst will happen, but if it does, go with what YOU believe is the right thing to do.
If at last resort you must, then you must, use whatever force IS necessary to protect what belongs to you.

Just my 2 cents worth..... plus some..... :D
Anyone got any change..... ;)

CP of the MRT

[Quilomene John]

Hey all,
There are a number of good tools for protecting your rights:

1. Firearm, ultimate tool, unfortunatly carries additional responsibilities/problems

2. Camcorder, possibly the ultimate "Low Confrontation" tool.

3. Pocket tape recorder, cheap portable alternative to camcorder.

4. Camera, not the most effective but useful and good for other enjoyable uses.

5. Contact Card, asks official for badge #, position, agency, details etc. very
portable, use to record the law, explanation of law, and any
municiple code that applies, according to official.

Like any tools these work most effectively, when used together in the proper sequence. QJ ;)

[Matt Mattson]

I have noticed they really don't like that videotape stuff . . .

[Coalbunny]

I see a reply I had to CP didn't come up. Grrrr....I hate computers...grrrr....

Yeah, it's nice to use the low impact methods, after all the last thing we need is bad press. Then again, all it seems the miners and prospectors get is bad press, courtesy of the socialist greenies.

Probrobly all the better I don't hold any claims.
Carl

[Redpaw]

The above situation mentioned is, and always should be a last ditch effort. I stand behind the rights to carry and brandish a Firearm when and where needed but I also know that this situation could have more than likely been resolved differently.

What should have happened is to try asking this ( Dumb Broad as you put it ) to calm down and start referencing what she felt was the violations of any rule in her opinion justifiying her actions.

By your own admission, you stated that your partner drew down and fire potshots at her to which I feel was a wrong approach. I personally would have let this woman continue to harrass and detain us unlawfully with her vehicular actions and pressed further additional charges against her agency for abuse of power.

The money gained from the lawsuit would have been used to buy additional acreage and fencing stating "No Government Agents or Representatives of the Federal Government are welcome here without prior written approved notice from property owner"

I have further problems with your comment "You have a great deal of potential. Sadly, it's only beckoning to the calls and rants of the socialist swine that strives to rid this country of mining. So long as we are willing to fight these fights in court, they will continue"

It is in my opinion that a Court Ruling that will help Miners across this country to have SET IN STONE rights to mine are much more important than forming a Militia and having an Armed Standoff resulting in criminal actions and needless death.

Please do not Advocate Violence towards a Government Agency and mention the MRT in the same train of thought again. We advocate education before recreation and we of the MRT are fighting in the courts the best we can.

I welcome your court expertise if any, to help us call to attention to these violations of our rights as Miners and I am more than willing to read any and or all of your previous court fights you may or may not had in the past.

Colorado Miners are standing Tall right now and are in need of Appeal Help in the Dreamtime Mine Case, Your help here would be welcome.

Redpaw of the MRT

[CP]

WELL SAID REDPAW! I couldn't agree more.....especially about the violence!

We welcome any and all constructive input from folks who are interested concerning the Dreamtime Mine, or if you have an issue with OUR rights as the public being lost, please post it here with as much of the pertinent information so someone can instruct you and others how to address the issue.

Carl, your comment above......

But until we actually stand up and use force to protect what is rightfully ours, whether it's a home, truck, wife or mining claim, these problems WILL continue.

IS right, but what we are saying is the force to be used will be the education of the people and the "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER" that I was refering to. If we speak up as a united group of outdoor enthusiasts, and that WILL BE A FORCE to reckon with.

Carl, you should have a claim if you desire...... IT IS YOUR RIGHT!
If you feel things are too bad to be involved in a claim, well then that is your redflag!
Tells me you should be one of the first to file for a claim! You know the officials need to be called on their bs, and like many of us, you also have the FEVER!

THE MRT WANTS YOU! :) AND ALL CITIZENS WILLING TO BE INVOLVED!

QJ mentioned the Contact Card above which EVERYONE should print out and carry with them just in case, along with the video camera or still frame.

CP of the MRT

[Coalbunny]

I don't advocate violence unless it's a last resort. Al, well......he's Al! Yeah, I was armed as well, but not for dealing with people like her. That stretch of the river has a lot of eco-terrorists/rafters. In my time of prospecting down there I only had one time I was harrassed while armed. And they were on the other side. Lucky them! Anyhow, it's the visual effects that I strive for. How many people you know that, while sober, will harrass an armed man? Hmmmm, ok ok. Never mind that. I didn't think you was gonna point your finger at me, CP! <grin>

Seriously, I prefer working with people. I know I wouldn't have dealt with the situation like what happened, but I also know that I would have made my intentions extremely clear if I was running the Dreamtime mine. Keeping in mind that I don't know the entire situation either.

There are some people out there, such as myself, that can't afford a lawyer, and I know I have a lot of difficulty understanding most of those laws and regulations. Maybe it's because I prefer common sense, or maybe because I'm intolerant of BS. One or the other. <ahem> In either case, unless you have the money for a lawyer you have no rights. Unless you're pretty good with that lawyer talk.


So my apologies to you gentlemen for giving the impression that I support violence first. Because I don't.

I look forward to working with you guys.
Carl

[CP]

Glad to hear it Coalbunny....... :)
Sorry, wasn't trying to put you on the spot my friend, just wanted to be very clear on the MRT's intentions.
We are very glad to have your input on any topic.
Thanks for your clarification also.
We will have to get together as soon as possible to do some mining..... ;) I'm sure it will be a great time!

CP

[Coalbunny]

Careful there CP, I jusy might take you up on that! :D

I am planning on hitting Idaho springs at ot about the time of the DEF gig, though I must confess that I plan on tenting, and I'm not sure of any "safe" (trouble-free) USFS areas I could hit. Me and a tent ain't much of a disturbance, or will they want a NOI for that as well? ;p
Carl