BUYER BEWARE! ILLEGAL REC GUIDE SERVICES Options

[swizz]

There is at least one (possibly more) individuals/vendors offering "recreational" guided Gold prospecting trips in the Colorado front range. These services are advertised on Craigslist, Facebook, and often have elaborate websites.
The daily pay-to-play outings are advertised to be on land that is owned by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS which are PRIVATELY OWNED by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS. The privilege of recreational panning and sluicing activities is already offered to the public at no charge in these areas by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS.... they are designated "recreational" areas put in place by you the voter/taxpayer. Why would you PAY someone any fee or sum of money to hold your hand there? Are you and your family that clueless? If you are... this is the demographic the illegal operations are targeting. You have already paid for the privilege to use these lands. The locations are offered to the public by the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS for your public use... you have already paid taxes and/or voted for these privileges and can enjoy them at no charge. You gain no further privileges by paying someone (especially if they are operating illegally) to take you there... where everyone and their sister is already panning for FREE, lol. Your wallet just gets lighter while you listen to some guy's bs prospecting "tricks" theories and techniques. Do you really want to pay some greedy prospector for "learning" their panning techniques, their "sure thing" and "secret" spots on your recreational land (while others are there prospecting and learning for free), and "experience" their sales pitch and "learning" for a fee?
That's fine if you do.... just make sure they are operating legally. The good guys share these tips, techniques, locations, and honest experiences with others for free (Hank and others know I practice what I preach). People mining miners will try to charge you. There are no "tricks" or fees, this is reality. Fortunately there are sites like CP where this information, "learning", "techniques", advice, and "experiences" along with a vast archive of resources are freely shared here and LEGALLY without a fee. CP isn't the end-all resource but it is damn good one... I know of none better. Prospecting, panning , and sluicing on recreational designated lands is not rocket science and does not require a fee to a private company to help you do it. You can learn theory, panning technique, and equipment processes here, at other free forums, and on youtube for Christ's sake. It's that easy. There are no super-secret magic panning and sluicing "tricks" to learn... which these shoddy outfits often advertise. These "tricks" are available everywhere online. The only "trick" that occurs is when your money magically disappears.

Need to learn where to dig and swirl a pan? Perhaps you'd like to explore something outside of the city rec areas and enjoy your RIGHTS instead of dictated 'recreational' privileges? Or... stay within the recreational public use areas which are close to you and enjoy them (for free!) at your leisure? Rec privileges are nice (and most often free to the public). But certainly not nice enough to pay additional fees to an illegal vendor, lark, or scam artist to hold your hand while emptying your wallet and slipping you a bag lunch.
Enjoy your recreational panning privileges for free. True exploration, prospecting, and especially discovery is by far more rewarding than giving your hard earned money to some guy who wants to make you lunch and take you to a public rec area to swirl a pan and offer you secret "tricks".

BEWARE:
The CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS legally require a permit and/or permissions for individuals and/or vendors to charge money for services rendered on their properties. ASK FOR THIS DOCUMENTATION BEFORE YOU PART WITH YOUR MONEY. A legally operating vendor or individual offering guided services, products, or services rendered on CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS owned lands MUST obtain and possess these permissions. They must present this documentation upon request.
If they fail to present it and give you a flowery story about why they are not required to present this, PURE BS... run away as fast as you can. In fact, run to the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS as fast as you can to make sure it's legal for the vendor/individual to take your money and offer a prospecting guide service on their rec designated lands.... or others will unknowingly continue to fuel their illegal operation(s).

Sometimes these larks will state things like "we don't charge you for the location" and act like it's a legal disclaimer to hide behind. Fact is... they are charging for services ON these locations without permissions to conduct a legal business there. That is a land usage violation and punishable.
If you do not check the legality of the vendor/individual.... illegal operations like this WILL tarnish recreational prospecting and jeopardize the sanctity and privileges of ALL recreational users who prospect on these lands. More 'prospecting guide services' and scam artists will see the opportunity and set up shop to take advantage as well. Abusing the recreational system on this level is appalling on many levels and will certainly be the ultimate ruin of recreational panning and sluicing as we know it. These vendors typically preach that they are trying to preserve rec prospecting when they are actually exploiting it monetarily... quite the scam. I don't want to see rec panning and sluicing exploited like this, especially illegally, I would like the heritage of Colorado recreational panning and sluicing privileges to remain in tact and in good faith with the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS. They did not open these areas so vendors could set up shop and charge people money for profit. This amounts to a blatant exploitation of what the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS, have given us recreationally. The abuse of our recreational privileges by greedy individuals and vendors who charge money on those lands could very well ruin it for recreational panning and sluicing in our state. The state does not tolerate illegal activities which exploit recreational privileges on the recreational designated lands. They can take rec privileges away if the abuses of the system get out of hand... hell they can do it on a whim. Illegal outfits give them plenty of justification to close rec areas open to prospecting. They weren't opened for folks to run a mining business on... the rec areas are there for the public users, not illegal business operators. Please don't support individuals or vendors who practice on rec lands illegally, it could also bite YOU in the ass, please be careful.

KNOW THIS:
It is ILLEGAL to offer and charge people for services or to sell or advertise retail or wholesale items and products on these lands for profit without documented permissions. ASK to see these permissions and/or verify them.
It is ILLEGAL to guide persons and children without proper business liability insurance coverage. As a customer you have every right to ask.... especially if you are including children in your outing, as there are legal liability issues involving potential injuries, etc. ASK for a Certification of Limited Liability Insurance in addition to the required permits to run this type of operation. Do not sign you or your children's injury liability and compensatory rights away to an unscrupulous illegal vendor or individual who does not have adequate business insurance coverage and documented permissions from CITY, COUNTY, or PARK rec areas which you can view and print... if that is where they are taking you!!


Please do not buy into these scams, individuals, or snazzy websites trying to sell this illegal service. Make sure they are operating LEGALLY regardless of their sales pitch, elaborate advertising, and possible claims to "fighting for your recreational privileges" (they often claim that these privileges are "rights")... you already possess the privilege and these outfits are jeopardizing it right in front of you... and you're helping finance the demise of recreational panning/sluicing if you use their illegal services. The websites will typically paint a pretty picture stating that they are "working hard to make recreational prospecting a RIGHT" or state that they are "working hard to create more recreational areas for you". This is the most laughable and pathetic part of the ripoff and it is a common pitch for this scam.
They want more free public recreational areas available to quietly operate their illegal businesses on.... get it?. Heck, maybe they can recommend and sell you some of their equipment while you're there, right? Their motives are clear to me and many others. MONEY. Report them immediately if they do not present you with their legal documentation mentioned above. Please do your part. This miner-mining-miners crap is getting old, always a new scam like this... don't buy into it. Report it.
Call the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS prior to shelling out money to someone offering 'services' on your recreationally designated parks, open spaces, and city owned lands. Ask if they know of the individual or vendor who is charging money for services rendered there.
Be sure that the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS knows that you are being charged money for services rendered on their recreational property for that day and it is legally permitted... and please make sure that whomever is charging you money, is compliant operating with the proper permissions, permitting, and liability coverage. If not... please contact the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS agency where the vendor is operating. You may also contact the State and report this activity if it is unlawful: DORA, COLORADO REGULATORY AGENCY

PLEASE
Know what you are getting into before opening your wallet, there are a lot of larks out there... and they want your cash in a bad way... for something you can easily do for FREE.
Need FREE help? We'll help ya... as will most at other clubs who truly value the REAL mining heritage and your FREE recreational privileges. Good guys don't charge ya for this... money grubbers, scammers, and larks do.

I am a Small Scale Miner (claim owner) who enjoys his RIGHTS... and I occasionally like to exercise my privileges to play on recreationally designated lands open to prospecting. I value ALL public lands and hate to see this type of illegal activity occurring on them for the benefit of money grubbin. It is an illegal abuse of the system, could result in loss of privileges, and definitely gives honest miners and prospectors a bad name.

[Denise]

I agree, thanks fenixsmom and kudos to your husband for doing it right!

[fenixsmom]

[leonard]

I guess I don't see any difference if I wanted to charge someone for me to take them out to show them how and where to go or joining the GPAA, paying for it, and then getting a book of claims I can go to. Also, not much difference than the BLM charging for a dredge permit to let you go on public land. That was a few years ago. This person is just cutting out the middle man and not giving them a book.About 10 years ago there was an outfit in Buena Vista that you paid for the day and then you could work on his claim. I had no problem with that as his claim was very good. I found an 3/4 pennyweight nugget on it on the Arkansas.
Leonard

[swizz]

I don't personally have a problem with paying someone that knows more than I do to take their time to teach me. It's done all the time at institutions of higher learning.

It is perfectly legal to teach at an "institution of higher learning".... you got that right Leonard.
It is NOT LEGAL to offer paid guide services at a public recreation area without permitting or a type of outfitter/guide license. This can involve first aid training, CPR, liability, and other requirements in place to protect the consumer, etc.... and the guide from being sued for that matter.
Nobody has a problem with legal guide services. Fly by the seat of your pants guide operations at Cache Creek are ILLEGAL.
Get it?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Denise. BLM needs to know. It's just another thing they'll cite as a chronic problem when they close the area for good.

[leonard]

It is perfectly legal to teach at an "institution of higher learning".... you got that right Leonard.
It is NOT LEGAL to offer paid guide services at a public recreation area.
Nobody has a problem with legal guide services. Guide operations at Cache Creek are ILLEGAL.
Get it?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Denise. BLM needs to know. It's just another thing they'll cite as a chronic problem when they close the area for good.

If a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention, it's just one more reason for them to close the area completely. The problems at Cache Creek aren't caused by a few guided trips. They are probably some of the very best at obeying the rules. The problems are caused by the people that don't know or don't care about the rules. That and over use of the are because of very few places to go. I don't care if it gets closed down, I have lots of places to go.

Leonard

[fenixsmom]

Hey Swizz, can you attach a link that says that paid guides can't do so on a public recreational area. I would love to be able to quote that law from the source if possible. I was looking for the laws earlier and I never came across it. The only thing I saw from the blm website was that any guides need to apply for a permit for public land outfitting and they need to be bonded and insured. If you can provide that info I would greatly appreciate it!

[fenixsmom]

Sorry, double posted on accident. Included this sentence for the edit. :D

[swizz]

feinx..... Call the BLM Public Lands Information Center in Lakewood. 303-239-3600
Open 9-4

[swizz]

If a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention, it's just one more reason for them to close the area completely.

Leonard

so.... just turn your head and cough while the vultures monetarily prey on noobies right next to you, illegally? If it were legal that's one thing, but COME ON. I know you don't personally go there and could care less whether they close it or not as you stated, but how do you even find it to be moral? I've never even been there but I give a hoot.
I'm not suggesting that "a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention".... but maybe they should now that you mention it.
Colorado Prospector Club is certainly not in the business of advocating illegal activities on recreational lands designated for prospecting, quite the opposite.

[fenixsmom]

Thanks Swizz will do!

[Denise]

I find it hard to swallow most of what you are saying Leonard, as all you see as acceptable is stuff you never/will never see the CP club and site do. You know my feelings on those acceptable examples you used. I never told anyone to tell the BLM, just to question the person on licensing and insurance before using their services or you see them providing services in the field. Frustrates me because I see others advocating those actions instead....even recommending these people.

The problems are caused by the people that don't know or don't care about the rules. That and over use of the are because of very few places to go. I don't care if it gets closed down, I have lots of places to go.

You are correct about people that don't know or care about the rules. Person I'm seeing on the net is a good example I think. If you take a pebble and drop it into the water, then another, then another...just a few mind you, the effect is the same that the ripple ends up going a long ways! Get my point? Over use of the area because of very few places to go is just googoopucky!

Part of what we help teach people is researching and finding MANY places to go open to prospecting....in any state! These places also allow you to prospect with hand held equipment (highbanker and dredges included) without a permit.

No hard feelings on different opinions Leonard.

[CP]

Ok let’s see if we can sort out some of the ripples in the pond of confusion that is Cache Creek and guided tours on FS or BLM lands…

Many folks are completely confused by the Cache creek areas rules. First let’s look at the areas designation just so we all understand where/what it is since it’s become a part of this threads discussion.
Cache creek prospecting area is contained within the Arkansas headwater recreational area, it is also a specially designated gold panning/sluicing area within the recreational headwaters area… similar to point bar where there will be no claims on that particular piece of ground, anyone can use for free without worry about claim jumping or research and is actually set up/designated for the recreational activities of gold prospecting within their special rules as stated for each.

On Cache creek there are no motors allowed while yet on the rest of the Ark headwaters rec area including point bar, you can get a permit to run a motorized unit. Rec areas for rec activities such as this can have these extra rules in place, they do not apply outside of each specified area…..ie Cache creek special rules (like no motors) do not extend outside of the Cache creek prospecting spot. Same with the motorized permits for the Ark headwater area….those do not apply outside of the rec area on any other BLM lands.

There can still be claims around the headwater recreational area borders as well as a few claims within the rec area along with many many privately held parcels in the rec area.
Hopefully that helps the basis of understanding for the rest of this discussion.

Now back onto the threads original topic about guides and outfitters prospecting tours or licenses.
From the link Swizz posted on page one for DORA (Colorado’s department of regulatory agencies), you can find the listed professions the “state” regulates/licenses such as guides and outfitters, and this is another very confusing spot for some.
DORA (a state regulatory agency) regulates and issues licenses for the taking of wildlife or fish on lands the outfitter does not own. Think that out….a state agency regulates/issues licenses to take wildlife/fish on FS and BLM lands…kinda’ weird but that is what it is.
So, from the link for guides and outfitters on the DORA website, you’ll find a page that explains their mission as a dept and what their license covers and the gist of that page is….

“The Office of Outfitters Registration registers and regulates individuals and entities that practice in the State of Colorado as Outfitters, which is defined as the ‘taking or attempted take of wildlife’ on land that an Outfitter does not own.

Registration for Outfitters is mandatory in Colorado.

The Office works with several state and federal agencies including the Division of Parks and Wildlife, the Bureau of Land Management and the United States Forest Service in order to share vital information about unregistered outfitters and violations of other agency laws. “

From this one can see that guides and outfitters licenses are only for “the taking or attempted taking of wildlife/fish” on lands the outfitter does not own. Gold or gems are not wildlife or fish so there will not be a license issued for this type of guided tour from that agency.
How about the FS/BLM, do they allow this type of business to operate for prospecting? The answer is no it’s not an allowed activity, rather quite the opposite. It is in fact illegal to operate any commercial business on FS or BLM lands without a written contract from the U.S. government.
For this I don’t have a single handy link off the top of my head sorry, you’ll have to dive into the CFR’s if you want to verify it, but you’ll find it many times over in each one trust me.

For the FS lands you will need to read up on the 36cfr’s
For the BLM lands you will need to read up on the 43cfr’s
CFR’s (code of federal regulations) are to be used in conjunction with the USC (US Code/Law) to apply those laws in a consistent manner from one federal agency and area to another. The USC’s involved will also be quoted within each CFR which usually explains where/why it’s authorized as worded.

Both are a lot of reading but you’ll find that it’s not legal to operate a guided tour (commercial business) for pay on federally administered lands. That goes for any BLM or FS lands, and yes including any recreational areas like the Ark headwaters and Cache creek.
So it’s just not possible to legally run a “guided gold or gem prospecting” tour/trip on any FS or BLM lands. Just as it’s not legal to charge money for access to claims. There are no licenses/permits issued for these guided tours because it’s not allowed by law!

The shortened answer after all this……… you can look and look for that permit/license, but if it does not exist you will not find one, and if there isn’t an issued permit/license then there certainly can’t be a legally operating business of this type!

Hope this helps folks understand all the “ripples in the pond”…

[Caveman]

Very clear and understandable, and in "plain language". Bravo, Mr CP! Thanks for taking the time to put that together. Man, I have a LOT of reading to do (and in legalese to boot)! This caveman brain just hurts to even think about that....

[fenixsmom]

Thank you very much for the clarification! I greatly appreciate you setting me straight on that!

[swizz]

Excellent clarification, thanks!