Closed area on Ark.? Options

[traddoerr]

I was just talking to a gentleman about the Ark. river North of Beuna vista and they said that is has been closed by the BLM for any prospecting from the GPAA claims down to jump rock, has any one else heard this as well, I haven't had the chance to call the local office yet to confirm. I have fished spots along that stretch but was going to try a little prospecting there this year as well.

[russau]

the Arkansa group claims are closed to dredgeing only. this has happened to big club claims.you can still pan/highbank there but check the local ranger staion and make sure!Blake Horman of the GPAA spoke his peice on the GPAA site about it. smaller claim owners on the Arkansa River arent affected by this new rule. so far!

[ducksnbucks]

Hello all,I WILL BE IN THIS AREA ALL NEXT WEEK AND WILL POST IF I FIND ANYTHING OUT ABOUT THIS,AS I PLAN ON TALKING WITH BLM/FORESTRY.I DID HEAR ON ANOTHER FORUM ABOUT FOREST SERVICE WRITING TICKETS AT ELEPHANT ROCK FOR PROSPECTING.NOT SURE WHY BUT WILL CHECK WHEN I GET THERE... STEVE

[traddoerr]

just read today on hookedongold site that this area is closed, so maybe it's true, still haven't had a return call yet.

[CP]

Unfortunately some sites may have unverified rumors posted as "new rules or laws".........Lets see if we can sort some of this confusion out once again for everyone reading.
The Arkansas river headwater recreational area is a specially designated rec area administered by the BLM. The area that is in question is the GPAA group claims, those are now closed to dredging.......although it is not a new rule from BLM. The new restriction comes from the claim owners themselves.

FS will not be the ones writing out citations on BLM lands....that would be BLM officers.
If there was in fact a new rule that closed the entire area to all prospecting then there are law requirements for how to do that through the BLM's official procedures......ie there will/must be a notice posted both in that office (Royal Gorge) and it must also be posted on site in the field.
According to the law as written the district ranger would have the authority to implement additional rules but I just checked the BLM's site last night and couldn't find anything that said anything about the area being completely closed to prospecting. The BLM site also has the newest placer permit forms uploaded just two months ago. I would think if they did close it all the form would be gone from the site.
Check the office and the field sites for postings to verify.

Also, I believe Elephant rock is a private claim owned by one of our members here, if you don't have permission to be there then don't dig on private claims.

Good luck out there everyone and hopefully this helps straighten out some of the confusion.

CP

[traddoerr]

Hlleo All,
I just got off the phone with the BLM for the Ark. district, the BLM is NOT! closed to prospecting only what CP mentioned above about the GPAA claims, BUT! the NF has closed any and all prospecting on the NF property from the GPAA claims down to elephant rock not jump rock, this was a decision out of the Leadville district, no one at BLM has been given a reason as to why. I have phone message into the district manager(FS) to contact me back as I also heard it was to be closed to all camping as well and may have other restrictions.

This area had been with drawn from mineral rights due to the possiblity of a dam being built at elephant rock but has not been finalized as of yet.
Could this give the FS the right to close rec-prospecting on NF lands if it has been withdrawn from mineral rights? I'll post what news I get when I get it.

[traddoerr]

I have talked with John Morrey/Megan ? of the FS district of leadville and, They did confirm that they have closed any and all prospecting on a 40acre section of land that borders the Ark. river between GPAA claims and elephant rock.

There reason for this is the abuse of the area by two groups, miners/rafters. Mr. Morrey told me that there is a fine line between recreational panning and a miner, were the recreationalist is doing it as a hobby/personal and a miner for profit, he said it is to complicated to seperate the two so they decided to close it all together, also between the prospectors and the rafters staying to long on the NF area it has created issues between users and degrading the area. And with this area being withdrawn it gave them the authority to close it to prospectiong and will be posting signs for this area very soon, and letting people know that they can't camp longer than the 14 days in the 40acre area.

He also mentioned that they will be talking to the BLM about the area adjasent to this spot being closed as well , but the BLM told me that they wouldn't consider closing any areas to prospecting (yet?).

Now I know it is only 40acres but will this set a standard for other withdrawn areas with-in the NF systems by other departments of the FS, hope not.

I hope no one misunderstands what I'm doing other than letting every one know of these changes and possiblity's as I would of hated to have planned a trip to that spot to find out it was no longer useable for certain things, and hope this doesn't lead to other possible closures, I hate getting info by hear say. Guess I'll just keep fishing there as the fishing can be great there! and pan/prospect on the BLM else were.

[Woody]

Thanks for passing this information along traddoerr. I myself have not panned/dredged on the Arkansas since the 90s but I’m sure someone out there can really benefit from this information. To me that’s what makes this site special, People networking together and sharing information that might assist another person. Far too often a person recognizes worth in terms of Monatery amount and misses the real value in life. City minded folks mostly I guess.” If it does not have a dead president attached to it then it is not worth much to them. “Any way, Thanks for the leg work, Woody.

[swizz]

There reason for this is the abuse of the area by two groups, miners/rafters. Mr. Morrey told me that there is a fine line between recreational panning and a miner, where the recreationalist is doing it as a hobby/personal and a miner for profit, he said it is to complicated to separate the two so they decided to close it all together,

traddoer, thanks for the info and pardon me while I vent

I'm not familiar with this area but Mr Morrey's statement is very disturbing, especially coming from a USFS office. "... too complicated to separate the two so they decided to close it all together" ?????
How convenient. He can't distinguish between recreational and small scale mining first of all (he states "too complicated"), secondly he contends that miners in general are abusing the area and rather than having NFS employees DO THEIR JOB and manage areas properly.. just "close it all together", thirdly he conveniently lumps recreational/professional rafters (do they know the difference?) into the "abuse" category (so miners won't feel singled-out?) but do you think that the area will be subsequently closed to rafting? Hell no, they don't regulate rafting or water passage. He doesn't even have a dog in that fight.
This sounds like a royal fleecing and one lazy, misinformed SOB that works for the USFS.
As taxpayers these people are on OUR payroll and we deserve better than that.

[swizz]

He also mentioned that they will be talking to the BLM about the area adjacent to this spot being closed as well , but the BLM told me that they wouldn't consider closing any areas to prospecting (yet?).

This also sticks in my craw. So Mr Morrey thought he'd share that tidbit with you as well.
I guess it must be in his job description to lobby other government agencies for closures targeting specific land users.
I reckon I need to read the King's Forest Service Manual again but it kinda sounds like Mr Morrey may have a small vendetta against the prospector.... and succeeding!

[traddoerr]

Swizz, I agree with you, I believe that they could have come up with a better solution than what they did, and the BLM thinks so as well.
I even mentioned that maybe they could of come up with some sort of fee for the area alone but it sounded like they hadn't put much thought to it.

As I listened to the recording I made of our conversation Mr. John Morrey also commented that some of the locals that live right next this area had complained a bit as well (noise from dredge motors, digging up the banks, and digging around roots out of live trees, rafters partying to wee hours of the night), I think this go's to show that a few bad apples can ruin it for us all, and as I mentioned before what kind of effect will this have on other areas in the NF, it seems like any time CA. comes up with some bogas law a few more ignorants start to think the same and pass the same.

As I mentioned, I really hope this isn't a trend thats going to get out of hand by the USFS.

I'll step down off my soup box now as well.

[russau]

just get ready to see this start all over the country!

[Coalbunny]

His name is John Morresey. Though my spilin' sux, the pronunciation is correct.

[CP]

The FS has been out of control for many decades and out of bounds for their delegated authority in many many ways. Unfortunately every year another area (ranger) thinks he/she can set some bogus rules to restrict prospecting.
This year here in Colorado there have been decisions made also that have backed the FS down on mining claims. These will change (are changing) over 35 years of FS authority abuses. Too bad so many past miners/claim owners let this type of abuse continue so long and it was one hell of an uphill battle to get there for the miners too.

Do not get off your soapbox folks, it's YOUR land!!

Don't let it happen across the country, it's YOUR land!!

Dig into this info folks, find out the truth and then pass it on so everyone can know, and never believe for one second that any club or special interest organization/group will "do it for you" ........either in court or the field. IT'S YOUR LAND! KNOW YOUR RIGHTS AND HOW TO ENACT UPON THEM!!!!

Is this FS land even really in the actual "recreational headwater area"? If not then those rules can not apply.
Is this FS land actually withdrawn from "mineral entry" or is it withdrawn from "entry"? .....ie homesteading

Thanks for the kind compliment too Woody, that's what it's all about here at the Colorado Prospector website and club, together we are a larger voice and as a group we can understand/interpret these laws as written, not just what the local officials feel like saying.
Keep us all posted as the details become available folks, thanks for all your efforts.

CP

[Coalbunny]

Dan, I met with Morrisey (sp?) earlier. And worse just went worse. Incoming private mail bro.