BUYER BEWARE! ILLEGAL REC GUIDE SERVICES Options

[swizz]

There is at least one (possibly more) individuals/vendors offering "recreational" guided Gold prospecting trips in the Colorado front range. These services are advertised on Craigslist, Facebook, and often have elaborate websites.
The daily pay-to-play outings are advertised to be on land that is owned by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS which are PRIVATELY OWNED by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS. The privilege of recreational panning and sluicing activities is already offered to the public at no charge in these areas by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS.... they are designated "recreational" areas put in place by you the voter/taxpayer. Why would you PAY someone any fee or sum of money to hold your hand there? Are you and your family that clueless? If you are... this is the demographic the illegal operations are targeting. You have already paid for the privilege to use these lands. The locations are offered to the public by the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS for your public use... you have already paid taxes and/or voted for these privileges and can enjoy them at no charge. You gain no further privileges by paying someone (especially if they are operating illegally) to take you there... where everyone and their sister is already panning for FREE, lol. Your wallet just gets lighter while you listen to some guy's bs prospecting "tricks" theories and techniques. Do you really want to pay some greedy prospector for "learning" their panning techniques, their "sure thing" and "secret" spots on your recreational land (while others are there prospecting and learning for free), and "experience" their sales pitch and "learning" for a fee?
That's fine if you do.... just make sure they are operating legally. The good guys share these tips, techniques, locations, and honest experiences with others for free (Hank and others know I practice what I preach). People mining miners will try to charge you. There are no "tricks" or fees, this is reality. Fortunately there are sites like CP where this information, "learning", "techniques", advice, and "experiences" along with a vast archive of resources are freely shared here and LEGALLY without a fee. CP isn't the end-all resource but it is damn good one... I know of none better. Prospecting, panning , and sluicing on recreational designated lands is not rocket science and does not require a fee to a private company to help you do it. You can learn theory, panning technique, and equipment processes here, at other free forums, and on youtube for Christ's sake. It's that easy. There are no super-secret magic panning and sluicing "tricks" to learn... which these shoddy outfits often advertise. These "tricks" are available everywhere online. The only "trick" that occurs is when your money magically disappears.

Need to learn where to dig and swirl a pan? Perhaps you'd like to explore something outside of the city rec areas and enjoy your RIGHTS instead of dictated 'recreational' privileges? Or... stay within the recreational public use areas which are close to you and enjoy them (for free!) at your leisure? Rec privileges are nice (and most often free to the public). But certainly not nice enough to pay additional fees to an illegal vendor, lark, or scam artist to hold your hand while emptying your wallet and slipping you a bag lunch.
Enjoy your recreational panning privileges for free. True exploration, prospecting, and especially discovery is by far more rewarding than giving your hard earned money to some guy who wants to make you lunch and take you to a public rec area to swirl a pan and offer you secret "tricks".

BEWARE:
The CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS legally require a permit and/or permissions for individuals and/or vendors to charge money for services rendered on their properties. ASK FOR THIS DOCUMENTATION BEFORE YOU PART WITH YOUR MONEY. A legally operating vendor or individual offering guided services, products, or services rendered on CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS owned lands MUST obtain and possess these permissions. They must present this documentation upon request.
If they fail to present it and give you a flowery story about why they are not required to present this, PURE BS... run away as fast as you can. In fact, run to the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS as fast as you can to make sure it's legal for the vendor/individual to take your money and offer a prospecting guide service on their rec designated lands.... or others will unknowingly continue to fuel their illegal operation(s).

Sometimes these larks will state things like "we don't charge you for the location" and act like it's a legal disclaimer to hide behind. Fact is... they are charging for services ON these locations without permissions to conduct a legal business there. That is a land usage violation and punishable.
If you do not check the legality of the vendor/individual.... illegal operations like this WILL tarnish recreational prospecting and jeopardize the sanctity and privileges of ALL recreational users who prospect on these lands. More 'prospecting guide services' and scam artists will see the opportunity and set up shop to take advantage as well. Abusing the recreational system on this level is appalling on many levels and will certainly be the ultimate ruin of recreational panning and sluicing as we know it. These vendors typically preach that they are trying to preserve rec prospecting when they are actually exploiting it monetarily... quite the scam. I don't want to see rec panning and sluicing exploited like this, especially illegally, I would like the heritage of Colorado recreational panning and sluicing privileges to remain in tact and in good faith with the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS. They did not open these areas so vendors could set up shop and charge people money for profit. This amounts to a blatant exploitation of what the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS, have given us recreationally. The abuse of our recreational privileges by greedy individuals and vendors who charge money on those lands could very well ruin it for recreational panning and sluicing in our state. The state does not tolerate illegal activities which exploit recreational privileges on the recreational designated lands. They can take rec privileges away if the abuses of the system get out of hand... hell they can do it on a whim. Illegal outfits give them plenty of justification to close rec areas open to prospecting. They weren't opened for folks to run a mining business on... the rec areas are there for the public users, not illegal business operators. Please don't support individuals or vendors who practice on rec lands illegally, it could also bite YOU in the ass, please be careful.

KNOW THIS:
It is ILLEGAL to offer and charge people for services or to sell or advertise retail or wholesale items and products on these lands for profit without documented permissions. ASK to see these permissions and/or verify them.
It is ILLEGAL to guide persons and children without proper business liability insurance coverage. As a customer you have every right to ask.... especially if you are including children in your outing, as there are legal liability issues involving potential injuries, etc. ASK for a Certification of Limited Liability Insurance in addition to the required permits to run this type of operation. Do not sign you or your children's injury liability and compensatory rights away to an unscrupulous illegal vendor or individual who does not have adequate business insurance coverage and documented permissions from CITY, COUNTY, or PARK rec areas which you can view and print... if that is where they are taking you!!


Please do not buy into these scams, individuals, or snazzy websites trying to sell this illegal service. Make sure they are operating LEGALLY regardless of their sales pitch, elaborate advertising, and possible claims to "fighting for your recreational privileges" (they often claim that these privileges are "rights")... you already possess the privilege and these outfits are jeopardizing it right in front of you... and you're helping finance the demise of recreational panning/sluicing if you use their illegal services. The websites will typically paint a pretty picture stating that they are "working hard to make recreational prospecting a RIGHT" or state that they are "working hard to create more recreational areas for you". This is the most laughable and pathetic part of the ripoff and it is a common pitch for this scam.
They want more free public recreational areas available to quietly operate their illegal businesses on.... get it?. Heck, maybe they can recommend and sell you some of their equipment while you're there, right? Their motives are clear to me and many others. MONEY. Report them immediately if they do not present you with their legal documentation mentioned above. Please do your part. This miner-mining-miners crap is getting old, always a new scam like this... don't buy into it. Report it.
Call the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS prior to shelling out money to someone offering 'services' on your recreationally designated parks, open spaces, and city owned lands. Ask if they know of the individual or vendor who is charging money for services rendered there.
Be sure that the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS knows that you are being charged money for services rendered on their recreational property for that day and it is legally permitted... and please make sure that whomever is charging you money, is compliant operating with the proper permissions, permitting, and liability coverage. If not... please contact the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS agency where the vendor is operating. You may also contact the State and report this activity if it is unlawful: DORA, COLORADO REGULATORY AGENCY

PLEASE
Know what you are getting into before opening your wallet, there are a lot of larks out there... and they want your cash in a bad way... for something you can easily do for FREE.
Need FREE help? We'll help ya... as will most at other clubs who truly value the REAL mining heritage and your FREE recreational privileges. Good guys don't charge ya for this... money grubbers, scammers, and larks do.

I am a Small Scale Miner (claim owner) who enjoys his RIGHTS... and I occasionally like to exercise my privileges to play on recreationally designated lands open to prospecting. I value ALL public lands and hate to see this type of illegal activity occurring on them for the benefit of money grubbin. It is an illegal abuse of the system, could result in loss of privileges, and definitely gives honest miners and prospectors a bad name.

[EMac]

Up front, I haven't had any personal run-ins with illegal guides as described. I'm going to risk stirring up the hornet's nest a bit I think though; please keep in mind my intent isn't to create drama, but rather better understand and perhaps generate some worthwhile discussion.

Reading through about unlicensed guides, I'm on board....generally in principal, but not necessarily wholly. I looked up DORA requirements to get a OUT license, and it has at least the first aid course, a bond, insurance and the app fee. It also says it doesn't guarantee you'll be registered (disclaimer about making long-term career choices based on the application submittal). I also saw it was for hunting and fishing with no mention of prospecting; I saw no permits for prospecting type stuff on DORA.

My personal experience: To get my feet literally wet with prospecting, I started out by contacting a guy with a claim up on the Arkansas (likely the same guy Leonard mentioned previously - PM). The gold bug bit me hard that day, and I moved on to further my knowledge of the subject, joining here, subscribing to ICMJ, buying equipment, meeting some local folks that compete in panning competitions, and soaking up whatever I can. I highly doubt PM was licensed and bonded as a guide, but we were also on his claim vs public lands. I absolutely loved the experience and frankly want to meet up with him again (great guy). He showed me and my son how to pan, cut us loose on his dredge most of the day, centrifuged the sluice concentrates so I had some very concentrated black sands, gave us an old black pan, vial, snuffer and offered an invite to return to his claims. PM charged me $25 for this which I'll argue all day long isn't even close to financial exploitation; I reckon he may have lost a few bucks since he was busy helping us instead of mining. I wouldn't be on this site today if it weren't for the experience. Granted my situation is different from the main discussion topic since it was his claim we were on, but I bring it up because to me very few situations are solidly black and white. I suspect there are at least a few folks in the prospecting community that had inauspicious beginnings with an illegal guide. Playing devil's advocate a bit, I'd like to try and suss out the shades of gray and better understand:

1) Is this a general disdain against prospecting guides? Even when properly credentialed (assuming there was such a credential)?
2) Is this an emotional argument, or one grounded in macro data showing a detriment to the prospecting community?
3) With the assumption that most in the prospecting community are against big government, who should enforce removing these illegal operations?
4) If a guide were offering their services for donations only, would your position shift?
5) If they changed it from "guided gold prospecting" to "we'll teach you techniques on how to recover gold" does that change your opinion?
5a) Does your answer change if they have proper business permits to rent equipment or teach a course since there is no prospecting guide license?
6) Is this primarily an issue that they're not paying for permits and taxes on money under the table (doesn't seem likely given the assumption in 2)?
7) Are you aware of any case law against illegal guides?
8) I'm also trying to contrast this position around illegal guides with say the California dredging permit. Would you argue the California dredgers are ultimately wrong and should no longer dredge unless they get a permit which the state will not grant (seemingly similar situation that there is no prospecting guide permit)?

I'm considering the financial exploitation piece, which also bugs me, but that's so ubiquitous everywhere (life in general, not just prospecting), that I wonder why focus on this extremely small population. Personally, if there was someone on Clear Creek offering a similar experience as what Phil provided for a reasonable price, permit or no, I think it would further elevate the community versus act as a bad apple.

Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much.

E

[CP]

Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much. E

Not a problem Emac, I've got a thought or two to offer on the topic....... Starting off and getting a good experience is awesome and very glad you and others have started out successfully that way.

For me this comes to two very basic principles which in my opinion cuts the "gray" area out completely as well as explains why there is no "prospecting guide permits" issued by the State/DORA on NF or BLM lands.

First and most importantly.....there is only 1 reason a citizen can stake and hold a mining claim and that is for mining purposes only! No matter how it's laid out, charging a fee to dig or be present for lessons etc. of any kind on a location mining claim clearly is not a mining activity. Mining is a profit business venture to extract something from the earth....not other people.

Second very clear violation of the law with this kind of set up on location claims is the law that reads something about .....it's illegal to hold or charge money for any commercial venture (guide services would be that) on NF or BLM without express written permission via the proper authorized authority/department. That would be the guided permits issued by DORA such as hunting and fishing guides must have. Further thought on this train will also reveal that should the state want to create a prospecting guide permit....how would mineral ownership play out, be researched or implemented within that program. AH HA!!...... It is not possible!

For those two main reasons I've always said and will continue to believe any fee's charged in this way (good out comes or not) are in fact illegal. The only way to have a legal guided prospecting adventure while charging a fee is to have the tours on private (patented) lands! There the owner can do what they chose in that fashion.

Clear creek (Jefferson county open space) is also private land where the owners (county) have implanted special rules about both prospecting and permitting for commercial ventures of any kind on the county's property as Swizz just posted in the other thread.

Beware out there folks even though it seems harmless at first, it really is not and over time only creates confusion and perpetuates more "get rich quick" scammers to try similar deals. MINING PROSPECTORS FOR THEIR MONEY IS NOT A MINING ACTIVITY!!

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