Here is a link to Pirate4x4 Forums "Land Use Issues" topic.
There are some great website links listed here, and some websites from the dark side.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14359

wow, theres a ton of info here! thanks denise!

Excellent resources for sure!.. Thanks Denise.
geno

Your welcome Russ and Geno!
I added for vehicle in personal info a 1969 GMC PU.
SHHHHHH, don't tell Dan.
My truck is on the fritz... B)

This is another site that has a hand full of information.
Conservation & Recreational Access

This is one of the educational pages they present to the public! I love this site.
"THE PUBLIC PROCESS - GETTING INVOLVED AND MAKING A DIFFERENCE"
http://www.4x4wire.com/access/education/pu...ocess_howto.htm

At the bottom of the page are some really educational links that help alot!
Here is one for example.
"U.S. SENATE E-MAIL ADDRESSES BY STATE"
http://www.4x4wire.com/access/education/contact_senator.htm

"LETTERS AND PHONE CALLS ARE IMPORTANT - Letter Writing Tips and Talking Points"
http://www.4x4wire.com/access/education/letters_howto.htm

This is some GREAT information that can help EVERYONE to help themselves. :)

Here are a couple more greate resources for people who are interested in protectiong their private property rights.

http://home.comcast.net/~rs2477/

http://www.posrp.org/

anti-mining alert.

In 59'ers post, I don't see the offensive part yet just the otherside of the flipped coin. It could be that 59'er didn't read the pages he said were good?....I'll give the benefit of the doubt being as he's a new poster here. Or until I see different.

From the second link

Who we are
POSRP is a diverse group of private property owners seeking the quiet enjoyment of our own homes and property. Many of us feel negative impacts from highways “constructed” under RS 2477 or claims tied to RS 2477. POSRP is also individuals that believe in private property rights and/or are concerned about negative effects of RS 2477 right-of-way claims.

So from the second link we have the rights of private property landowners being called for, which I support, and yet the coin flipped is the rights of way near, across or adjacent to their lands which are open to public travel...and this I also support.

The deciding factor is this, the homeowner is in the wrong, the road to be classified under RS2477 was there well before the homeowner was, and just because this new owner ( even if the house was passed down there was always knowledge of the road ) doesn't like to see or hear vehicles upon these stretches...TOO BAD.

If it wasn't disclosed at the time of sale of the house, too bad....Public Accees is Public Access and your rights to own your property should be respected....right after I drive by it, over, near it.

Redpaw the Road Wrecker.

Redpaw, the problem is not with the statute itself but with a re-interpretation that is being used by people who are trying to use it to confiscate private roads for public use. Most roads that cross old mineral patents are not public right of ways, and in fact they were constructed with private money by the miners or mining companies across their own private property to get from one part of their land to another. Some of the roads went from the mines to millsites without ever crossing any public land at all. In our case, the original mining company went to great expense to blast a road on the land they owned, and I don't see any good reason why the public should have the right to use it. RS 2477 is about construction of roads across public land not reserved for public uses. It doesn't apply to private property.

My family has owned mines and mining land for generations and we own and operate a small mining company. We allowed some use of our roads by the public but when mining equipment and land started getting vandalized we closed them off. I just don't feel that city kids with big jeeps and ATVs have the right to use my roads that I maintain and have never been maintained by the government to get to the back parts of my property so they can party and leave a pile of trash for me to pick up. Now that there's a gate, there's less vandalism.

There are two sides of the coin when it comes to people who buy mining land to develop or build homes on . They must recognize that they are on mining land and not complain if their neighbors are still using it for that purpose. If a county has obtained a RS 2477 right of way they can't close it because its a county road. In some cases it is very hard to prove taht a road is an RS 2477 but if the county can't prove it then it is presumed to be private and can be closed at the pleasure of the owner. There is no law that says a private landonwer must provide access and in fact the reason some land is so expensive and exclusive is because landowners can easily get to public land that is not easy for the public to get to (I'm thinking of some of the new subdivisions around Durango and Pagosa Springs). Maybe it seems greedy but the law in this country have always favored the private landowner who pays property taxes and most landowners don't want to share what they bought or inherited. The law has always been this way and if it was changed to force landowners to provide access it would reduce the value of their land and that would be an illegal takings.

I guess my opinion is that people who want to use their land to make a living should have priority over people that want to use their land for recreation.

59'er,

Is it a RS2477 Road or not?, you state the Original Mining Company blasted.....are you sure you gained possessor of right with your transfer?.

Sounds to me like your ownership of the road is of question with the RS2477 issuance by county or State decision.

Jerry Hobbs @ www.PLP2.org and I were just talking about this, I'm pretty damn sure you are in need of a few corrections to your standpoint and RS2477 issues.

I'm not here to argue your issues or make you feel good, I got called into this mess after a phone call that some whack job was posting "Enviro" concerns and that it needed my attention.

I'm actually in agreement with you in many ways and have walked your shoes with the public before, it gets real ugly and time consuming picking up their crap ( diapers and beer cans, tires, broken glass, clothing...etc ) and they are always expecting free trespass and trash pick up.

Clearly you're not a whack, I'm really glad you're here in the CP forums and I always welcome a good conversation, but I'm outta time right this minute with a water heater that exploded and a court date tomorrow at the same time.

Dave - redpaw to some, Dave to you.

Welcome 59er. This is a good bunch. Dan and Denise are super good folks with a real great site to post and learn. Hope to see you around and posting. We need more active claim holders here. You need to stop by on a monday nite for the open chat conferences on issues and such. Joe

Thanks for the welcome! It is nice to know about this community, which I have somehow managaed to miss for all these years. I wish I had discovered you guys a long time ago when I first got iinto this conflict with the offroad recreation crowd. Now that things are under control on that front, I hope to learn more about mining. For example, my CPA tells me I should incorporate our business and he recommends an S corporation. Has anyone here done that and if so what are the arguments for and against? Is this the right forum for that discussion?

Dave, no it is most definitely not an RS2477 road. The original miners patented in the 1870s before there were any roads in the area, at least according to the official maps from the state surveyor. I've learned quite a bit about this having fought the legal battle. Once the claims are fee title, the county can't get a right of way unless they condemn, which they never did. To do this under RS 2477 they must prove that the road pre-existed the patents, which they can't do, because it didn't (at least not according to the official state maps). The ORV people don't seem to care about all this and their argument is that if there is a road across mining land it must be a public road and they have a right to use it. Problem is when we gave permission they started making new roads off to the sides and when the rock crawlers came in they started going up the hillsides and really made a mess of the place. Since this whole thread started with pirate4x4 you should have a look at that site and see what their attitude really is. Here's a good example regarding another private mining road.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337156

It seems like the people on the Pirate4x4 forum are saying that it looks like a good road therefore it must be public, when in fact it is maintained by a mining company for their own use and that company decided (like me) to not allow recreational users to use it any more.

Get a Bigger Lock, you're in the right.

It's just too bad that so few could wreck it for the many and trust and re-assurance will take along time to regain if ever.

As I read the postings, I was left with this thought that the plantiff should have been charged for removal of the trees at least and escorted while on the property. I was also left with the feeling that although they want in, they would be unwilling to make any necessary repairs to anything needed to the road.

If you ever decide to show goodwill to the public, maybe you could setup a lottery style use 4 or 5 times a year on specific roads for individual groups for a 2-3 day temp permit?....one month the flower sniffers, next month a small group of Motobikes, next month a small group of ATV's....and as soon as any of them screw it up, they get their visit taken away next time...? or group privledges suspended until repairs are made?.

I think you're doing the right thing, I can't blame you and I'd honestly have to document the damage before the otherside claims it is mining related eco-damage.

Welcome 59er and thanks for the links.
Make yourself right at home and enjoy the site.

The 2477 issue is very touchy with many folks as they are frequently both private land owners and mining claim owners.
I would agree with Dave on this one and you need a bigger lock! :D
bet we can all learn a thing or two from your dealings with the rs2477 issues.

CP

Thanks again!

I've never had a problem with legitimate claim holders crossing our property, but even for them it has to be on the established road. I would never let anybody just drive cross country or make a new shortcut. I had problems with one guy who wanted a second way that was really not a good route, and he went so far as to sue me and and all my neighbors (that's where I got my legal education about R.S. 2477).

It's the kids on ATVs and the rock crawlers that I no longer permit because of all the damage and abuse and lack of respect. The worst offenders are actually the middle-aged adults who should know better. That's the reason for locked gates (claim holders have keys).

Here's another interesting thread on the subject from pirate4x4:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348061

Tread Lightly is an industry organization that is supposed to set a standard for the offroad groups. They have always said that recrational users should get permission before crossing private property, which is just common sense and a value that most of us were brought up with. It is surprising that this standard is now rejected by so many recreational users.

I think that the problem is that many of the recreational offroad users do not know how to determine whether or not a road is public, and they end up assuming that all roads are public. They don't know how to read a map and never think of looking at official county or state records. Because of this, I'm a converted and avid supporter of the Closed-Unless-Posted-Open (CUPO) rule. I think this is a sensible way to protect private property while letting people know which roads are public. I think claim holders can usually get permission to access their claim on roads that are closed to public recreation, and with all the vandalism these days that's a good thing.

I think this problem is going to continue to get worse as more and more people move to western states and buy ATVs and offroad vehicles to tear around on. I think that it is really important for landowners to know and assert their rights.

knowing your ights is a very important thing! lets hope that everyone does their research and stops assuming that its ok for them to do what they want! permission is easy to get if your a reasonable/responsible person and its always easier to get before you do something than after you have p.o.ed the landowner/ranger/police.

Right! And it is not all that difficult to get information. We did most of our own research on the history of our property, and spent time at historical libararies and the state archives. It's actually a lot of fun to find old maps and photographs of the land you own.

It is so aggravating to know how much blood, sweat, labor and money the previous owners went into building a road to their mines, only to have modern ATV riders act like they own it and like something is wrong with us for keeping them out. Those old miners didn't build roads for somebody else's entertainment, they built them ffor their business of mining.