if this is a repost let me know i did not see it and was in a hurry to get the word out:

also: the messege came to me with the links below. im not familar enough to know how our host feel about these things. it might not hurt to band with others from other forums, but if the links dont fight proticall pplease feel free to edit for me

Subject: Forest Service intent to take over States' jurisdiction of all waters, mining, etc.



Forest Service intent to take over States' jurisdiction of all waters, mining, etc.


August 30, 2004

Please, please, please get this Action Alert out to ALL your contacts ASAP.

The public comment period ends September 7, 2004.

This is an attempt by the Feds to take over States' jurisdiction of all waters, etc.

If it succeeds, there will soon be no state jurisdiction over anything.

The Feds will merely assume preemption whenever and however they please.

Notice they are doing it by one Forest Service employee's interpretation of a "minor mining regulation" -- MAJOR RED FLAGS!

Below is a letter from Patrick Keene, a member of a family-owned and operated business that will go out of business if this "Forest Service Regulation" isn't stopped.

By changing (or leaving out) one word in a regulation, a federal agency intends to kick hundreds of thousands of people off public land and put hundreds of businesses out of business.

Such power belongs to Congress, not the Forest Service.

Phone calls are great, but faxes are better ... Paper trail!

Any faxed correspondence should have the following as a heading:

USDA-Forest Service, Minerals and Geology Management (MGM)

Staff (2810)

Mail Stop 1126

Washington, DC 20250-1125

36cfr228a@fs.fed.us

703-605-4852

Fax: 703-605-1575

Attn: Secretary Ann Veneman; Undersecretary Mark Rey; Director of Minerals and Geology Management; and Staff Member Sam Hotchkiss

Re: PUBLIC COMMENTS ON THE INTERIM RULE

In accordance with the Request for Public Comments and Notice of Interim Rule:

Federal Register Notice, Friday, July 9 2004, (69 FR 41428)(2004 WL 1530411 (F.R.)), (RIN 0596-AC17) Interim Rule, allegedly, interpreting 36 CFR § 228.4, (the "Interim Rule"), and was signed by Mark Rey.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/shastatrinity/news...gulations.shtml

http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/nezperce/newsrelea...ns_07_15_04.pdf

Dear Secretary Veneman, Undersecretary Rey; Mr. Hotchkiss, and Director of MGM:

August 9, 2004

My name is Patrick Keene; I am part of a third generation family owned business that has served the mining community for 55 years.

Keene Engineering is the largest supplier of small scale and portable mining equipment in the world. Our company and many other manufacturers, sells to small businesses and dealers, who provide goods to prospectors and miners throughout the United States.

On July 7, 2004, there was a notice in the Federal Register announcing Forest Service plans to clarify the language of 36CFR228.4 that will negatively impact gold prospecting -- and any other activities -- on mining claims.

By removing the word significant from "significant surface disturbance," this will allow District Rangers to make arbitrary and capricious decisions as to the activities, which may cause "any" surface disturbance.

Significant surface disturbance, by definition, meant mechanized earth-moving equipment such as bulldozers, backhoes, cutting of trees, and now they are amending the regulation to include, panning, sluicing, small hand held suction dredges and hand tools in the same category.

A suction dredge vacuums material through a suction hose and carries the material into a sluice box. The water and material flows over gravity traps to remove heavy materials such as, gold and also removes lead and mercury which are natural occurring and hazardous to the environment.

Studies have proven that suction dredging does not harm fish or any other types of aquatic species and provides beneficial habitat.

There are over 167,000 small-scale independent miners, which support the economic infrastructure of the U.S. The annual economic benefit generated by small-scale independent miners is $253,000,000 in 2001. Source: U.S. Commerce Department. The Forest Service does not believe that the Economic Impact will not have an annual economic impact of $100,000,000 or more on the economy; which is [utterly false].

This Forest Service rule violates and circumvents the Administration Procedures Act, the National Environmental Protection Act (NEPA), the Regulatory Flexibility Act and many other important laws that give people rights on public lands.

The new language in the 36CFR-228.4 will not allow our industry and many others who provide prospecting supplies to survive, due to extreme economic impacts, because of this new regulation.

The Forest Service also feels that it requires no congressional authority to undermine the 1872 Mining Law.

Small-scale independent miners spend a large amount of money to benefit the small towns, counties, and the State's economies. Small-scale independent miners purchase fuel, groceries and camping supplies and many other amenities. It is important for miner to exercise their rights on public lands to explore and developed potential mineral resources for our country's economy. Most small businesses, which provide prospecting supplies and services, are struggling to survive in this political climate. The Forest Service by this interim rule is trying to eliminate the small-scale independent miners and their rights to prospect on public lands.

The opinion of the Forest Service is that a miner does not have the statuary right to occupy his valid mining claim for the purpose of mining even if it is incidental to a mining operation and that he should therefore be required file a mandatory, Notice of Intent. Which of coarse would require a Plan of Operation and a Bond.

You cannot obtain a bond if no one will bond you. Suction dredging has been exempt in the past The final determination is up to the District Ranger for he or she will be free to make any determination as to what they personally feel will be significant, whether the activity would be such as panning or sluicing of gold.

These regulations could collapse the recreational mining industry. It is essential that Americans maintain their rights to mine on public lands, because of the 1872 Mining law.

Mining is what made this country what it is today.

In conclusion, the new rule in affect will not clarify anything, but leave individuals to make their own interpretations by according to their own agenda, (which could be arbitrary and capricious).

Sincerely,

Patrick Keene

Keene Engineering

20201 Bahama Street

Chatsworth, CA 91311

800-841-7833 (outside CA)

800-392-4653 (in CA)

Fax: 818-993-0447

Pat@KeeneEng.com

http://www.keeneeng.com/contact.html

-----

Additional researched, recommended reading to help you write some terrific comment letters (these are mining message forums/boards, and there are several excellent comments at each URL):

http://www.mindat.org/msg-15-1198-1198.html


http://www.goldprospectors.org/forum/messa...html?1092409642


http://www.promackminingsupsouth.com/Newsletter.htm


http://www.minersresponseteam.org/36.228.4...%20changes.html

Keene Engineering .......so much to say yet so little room to explain it all

KEENE has never graced the MRT site.

KEENE will never get the respect they deserve.

Keene is above and beyond the realm of supporting and fighting for the miners and small scale aspect of our lifestyles...anyone who knows what a shovel can do in the proper hands knows this as a fact.

Keene Engineering will never grace the cover the pages of MRT because all of the friends and partners that the MRT knows and deals with daily are regular distributors of KEENE PRODUCTS.

Patrick Keene ( as referred to ) in the above post is a very close and cherished friend of Redpaw, Redpaw as webmaster of the MRT has talked with Pat about the unique situation with never having Keene Engineering on the MRT site and the reasoning is this:

Too many of the MRT and their friends all deal with the distribution of KEENE products, if the MRT was to have KEENE engineering as a clickable link on the MRT site how many dollars would be lost to the distribution of Keene products by our friends who own and maintain franchises and third party sales....why would anyone ever go through Jus John's ( to name one ) site to buy KEENES products when they can cut out the middle man and not support a local Business?

The MRT knows and respects every decision that Patrick Keene decides to put his nose into, Patrick Keene has and always will be missed on the MRT site but the both of us know that Keene cannot be a lone fighter in this battle. I want you all to know that Pat Keene and I have shared many of days together and although we cannot advertise for him...We stand 100% behind his fine company and will always buy his products first and foremost and encourage the third party distribution of his products by our friends.

We of the MRT would rather pay a few bucks more and support a mining store in our local neighborhood that to allow those who would buy direct from KEENE to not support the local community that serves and supports miners.

Support Mining by buying Local, support your suppliers by shopping often and support KEENE engineering with their once again single handed fight to fight for us who mine.

If KEENE goes under do you really think that you will get a better product or better service with respectable Leadershiip when the time comes?...

KEENE is always coming to the front with a fight, when is the last time your local mining shop put up 2,000 or 3,000 to start the war?........really?....i doubt it...KEENE cannot fail, we need KEENE much more than they need us.

Call KEENE and tell them you want to buy something right now......call their distributor......They need sales to fight the fight for you.

We can support KEENE by purchasing local, which supports your community, which supports KEENE, which supports the economy, which supports our rights.

Everytime someone needs a hand who do they call..........KEENE

KEENE is calling back this time,

Welcome vcb,

Great work!
We are all very concerned here and no we don't mind at all that you posted the links.
Thank you.
We also do have a topic going for the 36cfr228.4a interim rule which may be viewed in the MRT forum.
Miners Response Team Forum (opens new window)
There is also a side by side comparison of the old 228.4a and the new proposed rule.
Thank you for your input and we are very glad to have off roaders here visiting this forum.

Thanks to Pat Keene for his companies tremendous ongoing efforts.

CP

Hey all,
Well said Redpaw! We all need to support our local mining store! I wasn't planning on buying as much gear this month as I did but breakdowns are a fact of life. That gear stays real nice and new if you stay home,but what fun is that!

We have a titanic sized battle ahead with the U.S.F.S. They couldn't stand losing the Lex-Waggener Decision but didn't have the integrity to appeal the decision. They chose to concoct some lame "Emergency Regulation" for a non-emergency situation. Their regulation will not even address their pet peeve of the dreaded Over 14 Day Camper! What a bunch of punks! All miners no matter how small scale need to send their comments regarding the violation of their Statutory Rights this reg. causes and how it jepordizes their assessment work and therefore their property rights under 30 USC chap 26 (1872 Mining Law)! QJ