http://goldprospectors.org/newforum/forum_...=10301&PN=3

Rockbuster, I do not intend my post to be a confusion, or as you have stated. But that you think they are must be addressed. This is not necessarily the easiest medium but I'll try to clear things up as it appears to Me you misunderstand, or misinterpret of what I am saying or producing, to explain or support. I thought the Congressional Record of 2000 was very clear in its discussion. The Honorable Jim Gibbons does a great job explaining the private property aspect of our granted entry claims, also.

Your definition "In unpatented mining claim, on public lands ‘minerals as a word in the law does not include the land’" pertains, at best, to administrative entry minerals on public land under such disposal laws as the 1955 Act. I am not speaking to administrative locations on the public land. The grant of 1866 does not address what it did not grant. The grant speaks of the public domain mineral estate NOT public land mineral disposal.

I am exposing that when you locate granted minerals under authority of the grant of 1866, it's granted property, rights, or entitlements, saved by every subsequent legislation, as I have now found as clearly explained in the Congressional Record of 2000, your location is on the public DOMAIN. The acts of 1866, of 1897, and 1891 explain this clearly. Public domain is NOT public land. The property, rights, or entitlements on public domain are NOT the same as those on public land. And under the grant you automatically get all the surface, the water, the access, and water even if it is not on the property. Administrative locations such as those under the Act of 1955 are on PUBLIC LAND, not the public domain, and everything obtained, under, for instance, the 1955 act requires a license, permit, or contract. Granted mineral location does not require any license, permit, or contract.

Your definition is for leasables, saleables, or disposables. It is not applicable to the mineral estate granted and "disposed of" in 1866. If you do not know there is a difference you will never understand what I am saying. If you do not know the example of the two-branched mineral estate tree, you may not be able to easily see the fact. All subsequent disposal laws after the Act of 1866 , such as the 1955 Act which dealt with leasables and saleables of common variety mineral such as sand, gravel, and sandstone, etc., have savings clauses protecting the gifts granted by the Act of 1866 as clearly explained in the Congressional Record.

Part 3800 is not applicable to granted mineral estate locations. Granted private property mineral locations under the authority of the Act of 1866 are not "special uses" subject to this Part.

Subpart 3809, is not applicable to granted mineral locations as the Authority shows and as it expressly states at 3809.2 Scope.

You can hear the explanation read from the rules here: (Note: The following mp3s may take a few moments to load, Please be patient)

43 CFR 3809 No Authority Over Property

http://archives.restoretherepublicradio.co...21815-00-00.mp3

Subpart 3802 pertains to wilderness study areas, and is not applicable to granted entry in any regard.

Subpart 3715 is not applicable to granted minerals as the "Authority" for the part clearly shows. In other words, what we Mineral Estate Grantees do is not a "special use" subject to this subpart.

You can hear the explanation read from the rules here:

43 CFR 3715 Deceptive Sentences

http://archives.restoretherepublicradio.co...21915-00-00.mp3

43 USC 1732 expressly prohibits all land management authority over any vested property, right, or entitlement, such as those entitled under the Grant of 1866.

You can hear the explanation read from the statute here:

Other Authorization Trumps Agency Enforcement Authority

http://archives.restoretherepublicradio.co...21615-00-00.mp3

The Transfer Act of 1905 expressly prohibits Forest Service having any authority over minerals all together.

The terms used in Subpart 3809 are from 40 CFR 1508 and "shall be uniform throughout the Federal government". And without consent of the property owner to be part of a major federal action, which receives federal funds, with agency discretionary authority over the project, program, or demonstration those terms are not applicable. Those terms include "Notice of Intent" from which the POO must be drawn. Therefore, the NOI and the POO are not required because, without more, the NEPA is not applicable to private property in-holdings on either the public domain or public land.

You can hear the explanation read from the rules here:

http://archives.restoretherepublicradio.co...42415-00-00.mp3

You write as if you did not read the Congressional Record I supplied. I would ask that you read it or reread it as the case may be. Here is some supplemental case law:

Federal mining claims are "private property" Freese v. United States, 639 F.2d 754, 757, 226 Ct.Cl. 252 cert. denied, 454 U.S. 827, 102 S.Ct. 119, 70 L.Ed.2d 103 (1981); Oil Shale Corp. v. Morton, 370 F.Supp. 108, 124 (D.Colo. 1973).

"Mineral rights are ownership in land, and therefore Lewis is a landowner. See, e.g., United States v. Shoshone Tribe of Indians of Wind River Reservation in Wyo., 304 U.S. 111, 116, 58 S.Ct. 794, 82 L.Ed. 1213 (1938) (with respect to question of ownership, “[m]inerals ... are constituent elements of the land itself”); British-American Oil Producing Co. v. Bd. of Equalization of State of Mont., 299 U.S. 159, 164-65, 57 S.Ct. 132, 81 L.Ed. 95 (1936) (finding a mineral estate an estate in land); Texas Pac. Coal & Oil Co. v. State, 125 Mont. 258, 234 P.2d 452, 453 (1951) (“[ l ]ands as a word in the law includes minerals”). We need not decide whether the term “landowner” as it is used in Forest Service regulations and orders always includes owners of mineral estates. Here, the government conceded at oral argument that Lewis is a landowner under the terms of the closure order before us and thus exempt from this closure order. " Hicks 2002.

"When the location of a mining claim is "perfected" under the law, it has the effect of a grant by the United States of the right of present and exclusive possession. The claim is property in the fullest sense of that term; and may be sold, transferred, mortgaged, and inherited without infringing any right or title of the United States....The owner is not required to purchase the claim or secure patent from the United States; but so long as he complies with the provisions of the mining laws his possessory right, for all practical purposes of ownership, is as good as though secured by patent." Wilbur v. U.S. ex rel. Krushnic, 1930, 50 S.Ct. 103, 280 U.S. 306, 74 L.Ed. 445.

Cheeser, I'm not asking anyone to trust Me, so it is a good thing you do not. The government also says not to trust it, {see its Disclaimers}.

I am, however, asking you to do the most basic of research so you can stop getting yourself into unnecessary entanglements with agency having no authority to interfere, diminish, or obstruct the vested property granted under the Act of 1866 and which granted property, rights, or entitlements have been saved by the required clause in every subsequent mineral disposal law; As clearly stated in the Congressional Record of 2000.

I can not force anyone to see what they are unwilling to see. If you want to throw yourself under the administrative bus, this is America, you can do so if you wish. But this is America. I nor anyone else is compelled to follow you into an accident. To resist tossing ourselves under the bus, we need knowledge and have the certitude and will to apply that knowledge required to look before leaping. I hope this explanation helps to that end.

Cohiba, what does your question about taxes have to do with the price of tea in China?

Wow after reading all this...my head hurts.

Congressional Record and other information links from here:
www.restoretherepublicradio.com/Behind_the_Woodshed_Week_In_Review_APA_Notice_Points/

Note: Again, For those of you wishing to keep abreast of matters pertaining, of similar comments, questions and concerns in this Thread, I have posted a response to rockbuster and others on the GPAA Forum...link: http://goldprospectors.org/newforum/forum_...=10301&PN=4

Rockbuster, I'll try again to explain further where you are misapprehending this matter. Let's see if I can bust the rock which impedes your understanding. You have provided Me the form which I will follow. I'll answer to your statements, part by part. And at some point here, understand, I am not trying to convince you, because I can not explain any thing to someone who insists on not keeping things straight. But you have challenged Me to explain then accused Me of something you have no right to allege. So I speak to those that might get the idea that you know what you are talking about though you all the while misapply what you claim disproves what I have presented. And I must add here, as the knowledge I am presenting is being applied in the field, the courts, and to the agencies, we are having very desirable affect and in some cases outright victory....the war to reassert our private property, rights, and entitlements continues......without agency permission. Every war has casualties....that seems to be what it means to be an American with the responsibility when moving against those who would undermine our way of life, or property, and our laws....and in this I would hope we might agree.

>>>Okay MineralEstateGrantee break it down. Where is it that you believe granted minerals are locatable, other than on BLM managed public lands or USFS managed lands?

The first sentence of the Act of 1866. This the Original Grant is not in the US Code:

Found at http://www.grantedright.com/The_Law.html

That the mineral lands of the public domain, both surveyed

4 and unsurveyed, are hereby declared to be free and open to

5 exploration and occupation by all citizens of the United

6 States,

The grant does not identify the minerals on "public land", "BLM land", "Forest Service Land", "Forest Service System Lands", "USFS lands", "federal land", "acquired land", etc., and so forth, all of which are different designations than public domain.

>>>I have read Us Code Title 43 Sub Chapter III Sub Sec 1732. Most claims are located on BLM managed land and if you read the associated sections within this section (As well as my previous post - section on BLM) you would already know that.

As the grant clearly states the granted mineral estate is "of public domain". "BLM lands" are not mentioned and but for the agency fairy-tale, "BLM lands" do not actually exist. But you refuse to notice this is the fact...so I don't know what more I can say about that failure.

>>>The only exceptions to these new policies is for claim help pre 1976, and even those claims are subject to some of the new regulations set forth in these laws.

As the Congressional Record posted earlier clearly states, all subsequent land disposal laws must include a savings clause so as not to interfere with the prior disposal by grant of the minerals of the public domain. There are no exceptions to this. Any exception to this requirement becomes an unlawful takings. And it appears you misunderstand any exception in 1732 which excepts, withholds, agency management authority from having any authority over this vested mineral estate. One thing that many people do not understand is how a "present grant" such as the Act of 1866 is treated by the court as regards the property identified after the date of an act. Here are a couple of cases which ought to explain the matter and will show why the Congressional Record clearly says all subsequent land disposal laws must have savings clauses. Every granted mineral location has rights by relation to 1866, not the date of its location "today".

*** “In construing a public grant, as we have seen, the intention of the grantor, gathered from the whole and every part of it, must prevail. If, on examination, there are doubts about that intention or the extent of the grant, the government is to receive the benefit of them.” ****** “and, unless there were other provisions restraining the words of present grant, the grants uniformly were held to be in praesenti, in the sense that the title, although imperfect before the identification of the lands, became perfect when the identification was effected and by relation took effect as of the date of the granting act, except as to the tracts failing within the excluding provision.” St. Paul & Pacific R. R. Co. v. Northern Pacific R. R. *** [Aside Note: Scope of grant inferred from the term “for other purposes”, big.]

*** “"A grant, in its own nature, amounts to an extinguishment of the right of the grantor, and implies a contract not to reassert that right. A party is, therefore, always estopped by his own grant." Fletcher v. Peck, 10 U.S. 87 (1810)”

The Shumway case is also instructive:

The doctrine hereinbefore enunciated has never been seriously questioned. It has been reiterated in many cases in both the state and federal courts.

“[t]he owner of a mining claim owns property, and is not a mere social guest of the Department of Interior to be shooed out the door when the Department chooses. Rather, pursuant to the Multiple Use Act, the Department must continue to coexist with a holder of a valid claim whose right to possession is vested.” (Shumway, 1999, 199 F.3d at 1103.)

30USC 611-614 known as the Multiple Use Act is clearly for leasable minerals by the “Mineral leasing laws” definition as amendatory of or supplementary to mineral leasing law.

Is it apparent the Shumway court interpreted that the Multiple Use Act did not apply due to the exception in the lease disposal statute at 30USC 612 (b) “(except mineral deposits subject to location under the mining laws of the United States)” to reconcile the fact that locatable mineral claims relating to the grant Act of 1866, or 1872, are vested and must maintain the right of exclusive possession. This further shows these Acts were never intended to be diminished by the Multiple Use Act which did not change any wording, interpretation, cause, or effect expressed in 30USC26, reflecting the 1872 Act's 1866 savings clauses required of all legislative grants, or that A party is always estopped by his own grant. Fletcher v. Peck, 10 U.S. 87 (1810) .

So these negate your opinion here:

>>>"The BLM was designated as land management for US public lands by the Secretary. Many laws, in place today, have added to and/or modified the Land Act of 1866 and the Mining Act of 1872."

Additionally, this grant-based mandate protecting locatable minerals is seen in the FLPMA statute section at 43 USC 1732 stating, “except that where a tract of such public land has been dedicated to specific uses [e.g., exclusive mineral estate possession] according to any other provision of law [e.g., the 1872 Act] it shall be managed in accordance with such law” “The Secretary shall manage the public lands under principles of multiple use” provided, “no provision of this section or any other section of this act shall in any way amend the Mining Law of 1872 or impair the rights of any locators or claims under that Act, including but not limited to, rights of ingress and egress.”

Where leasable minerals are administratively disposed by the Secretary under the Multiple Use Act, locatable minerals in the public domain shall not suffer impairment, and instead, as the Shumway court found, “must continue to co-exist” separate of public land management duties.

Then you use all your misunderstanding of law to say of Me, "You are feeding bad information to miners and unpatented claim holders," but you have not substantiated the accuracy of your understanding, at all. You continue to mix the types of disposal, the time of disposal, and the law that applies to it and bring an erroneous view as to the subject matter authority of the agencies for your imposition. The Congressional Record clearly states the agencies have no authority. So until you get all that straight, you will not see what I am saying and you will disagree and you will continue to be lead by the nose by agencies with no actual authority. That you do not understand this does not make Me wrong. If it is you need a profiteers opinion, all I can say is the more attorneys that look into this and actually research it in-depth, the more they are having to agree with what I am presenting....that's not me saying that, they say it. ultimately, I'm not saying anything, really. I am merely pointing out how, where, why, and what caused our ore cart from the track.

>>>"and unless you are holding a Bond for their bail and legal fees I suggest; all who read your assertions do so with extreme caution. "

I don't know why I should get a bond, I'm in no commercial activity profiteering upon ignorance. You are free to hire an attorney. But beware, every one I have researched are trained only in administrative mineral law, not granted mineral estate law. And it won't matter how you proceed because by ignorance of the law we will throw ourselves under the administrative bus by abandoning our VESTED property, rights, and entitlements accruing by relation to 1866....or the law as has been consistently applied up until about 30 years ago, when the mining community fell on its face when it began listening to government agency and bad case law decisions. Listening to agencies which will not warrant its information is reliable, or that it will NOT interfere with private property rights.

The extreme caution ought to be when any Mineral Estate Grantee listens to government agencies whose only legitimate authority is limited to things not already disposed by "other authorization" as 1732 expressly acknowledges, as the Congressional Record clearly states is a required element of any subsequent land disposal law. But let's not take your word for it or even mine. Let's see what a second and third opinion says upon the matter:

When “Taken together, mineral laws constitute a special code upon that subject, and show that they are intended not only to establish particular mode of disposing of minerals, but also to except and reserve them from all other grants, and modes of disposal where there is no express provision for their inclusion. United States v Sweet (1918)” “that subsequent laws incorporated in statutes provide expressly how title to such lands may be acquired, as limiting power and authority of Land Department [now Bureau of Land Management] in disposing of public lands valuable for minerals under such method and under such conditions as may be specifically pointed out by some act of Congress. Kansas City Min. Co. v Clay (1892).” (See: 43 USC 1701)

>>>"This is as far as I will go with you on this topic as I believe you are trying to start a movement that can not, and will not end well. Good luck with your venture."

Thank you for your contribution as far as you could go. Thank you for challenging my presentation of the law, the Congressional Record, and consistent and instructive court cases, in further confirmation of my findings. Be assured, If it does not go well, we will find we no longer live in America. Thank you for your support. Not many are willing to go the distance to protect their private property, rights, or entitlements from trespass.

Note: For those of you wishing to keep abreast of matters pertaining, of similar comments, questions and concerns in this Thread, I have posted a response to LipCa and others on the Alaska Gold Forum Forum...link: http://bb.bbboy.net/alaskagoldforum-viewth...&postnum=60

Thanks LipCa, for the opportunity....I still owe chickengold a bit more of an answer but let Me take yours, it ought to be a bit easier to explain to show you there is a difference in the designations, even if they are made up, like "BLM Land."

I've got to go quickly here because of other pressing matters, so I'll speak in generalities. Any specifics I'd have to deal with separately with more info. These generalities can be further defined by statute and you have to look to those and read them very carefully.

But for our case here "public domain" is not actually the same as "public land".

The distinction is harder to make because these to are so often interchanged but are not actually synonymous. Evidence that they are not the same and also showing that what ever they are called, forest reserves, national forest, forest system lands, the territory of the Forest Service jurisdiction, is not "public domain" can be found in the Creative At 1891 and Organic Act 1897, each states that land found valuable for minerals is restored to the public domain. So obviously they are one thing different than what they are restored to when mineral is found, the public domain, which under the grant we get to exclusively possess.

Public domain is essentially, unappropriated land open to entry. The mineral estate in the public domain granted under authority of the Act of 1866 is disposed of already, therefore it is outside of agency administration.

"Public land" is essentially the "lands" [it's all one land really, America, right] that are managed by the agencies generally. They include generally and loosely everything not disposed of by act of Congress that can be disposed. This is where they maintain administrative authority.

If you picture a layer cake you'll begin to get the idea; public domain is on the bottom layer, the foundation. Public land is on top of that layer. And the other types, [listed below] are on top of the public land layer. The agencies have administrative authority over the public land layer and everything above, but not the public domain which is the layer below. This layer below, the public domain, is the layer in which the mineral estate grantee property resides as well as the Section 8 highways, both of which the agencies have no administrative authority over. See the SUWA v BLM 2006 case for confirmation regarding the immunity of the highways from BLM administration authority.

"federal land" is split estate land that is land where there is a surface entry and a subsurface right of entry.

"acquired land" is land that is patented land that is repurchased or by exchange back into the United States possession. It can be thought of more as a private holding, the government is the private property owner. I think H.R. 699 pertains to this being the "legal and beneficial title" is held by the United States; Which I'm looking for help to identify absolutely. This style title holding is not the condition of the public domain granted mineral estate.

"Special use" areas, these are "usually" Acquired Lands administratively designated for a particular use.

If there is such a thing as "BLM Land" or "Forest Service System land" it is really and only agency designation for purposes of management, grounds-keeping. In other words, there will never be a vested property or interest in agency designated land and all service routes will be administratively created and controlled, unlike Section 8 "highways", which can be as small as a footpath and require, literally, an act of Congress to condition.

One new name that has just popped up is "public domain land". This is the tricky one they just invented to make it look like public domain, but the actual definition doesn't match up. "public domain land" of the recent Bills does not appear to be "public domain" spoken of in the 1866 Act.

But "they" are after the granted mineral estate to steal it back and so every device is being used to try to get us to believe what is being regulated today is what we claim and was gifted under the Act of 1866. What is so very interesting is, if that were true, if the new Bills were actually affecting that public domain, they wouldn't need the savings clauses that are still included.

I hope that clears the differences up a bit better for you. once you see this it should begin to get easier to keep track of what is going on in the law and what the agencies are talking about.

Excellent explanation Mineral Estate Grantee and thank you for the valuable information.
Unfortunately it seems you have run into some confused individuals on these other sites mentioned and hopefully this info will help the confused understand a bit better.

Very well stated, it's difficult for many folks to understand the "layers" of authority and who's actually been delegated and who definately has authority in different situations....ie FS or BLM and why or why not.

Both links you posted to other forums unfortunately will not work for anyone who's not signed into those forums, they both are only viewable to those registered and signed on where as here in the CP forums everyone can read including guests.
Please feel free to post a link to this thread and your responses at both restricted forums though, they can all view the thread here.


Another good point to show in these "layers" of authority or lack of it........the FS and BLM are both dictated by law to apply law in a fair and consistent manner at a federal level.......so from one state to another on our lands, there is suppose to be a consistency which seems to be hard to find.

Keep up the good work and thanks again.

CP