Full Version: Karuk vs. Ca. DF&G Case Status
Colorado Prospector - Gem and mineral prospecting and mining forums > Land Rights, Laws and References > Fight For Your Rights!
Here is the first pdf
the 3rd pdf
This is the Karuk vs Ca. DFG case not the DEF.
Jerry
Jerry
ooops sorry Jerry, I have been so busy, when I added them, I was going by the name of the PDF's. My mistake.
Thats a common mixup mom, no biggy. I looked at the PDF, and def stands for defendants i'll bet.
Thanks for the PDF's too, excellent reading.
Thanks for the PDF's too, excellent reading.
This is a joint response from the 49ers and Jerry to the karuk tribe and Ca. DFG.
http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2076 Joint Case Status Statement.pdf://http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2...s Statement.pdf://http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2...s Statement.pdf://http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2...s Statement.pdf
http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2076 Joint Case Status Statement.pdf://http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2...s Statement.pdf://http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2...s Statement.pdf://http://www.coloradoprospector.com/2...s Statement.pdf
Thanks for posting these honey....sorry I didn't get to take care of them.
Jerry and everyone involved fighting this BS.............GREAT JOB FOLKS!
I just finished reading and you are right on the ball!
Thanks for sticking through this for all of us.
Otherwise the Ca.DF&G would just .............oh never mind!
Man that department is wishy washy.....
If you haven't read these yet......Fill up your coffee cup and dig in!
You won't believe what this department is attempting.
CP
Jerry and everyone involved fighting this BS.............GREAT JOB FOLKS!
I just finished reading and you are right on the ball!
Thanks for sticking through this for all of us.
Otherwise the Ca.DF&G would just .............oh never mind!
Man that department is wishy washy.....
If you haven't read these yet......Fill up your coffee cup and dig in!
You won't believe what this department is attempting.
CP
Hi everyone. Sorry I have not kept the updates going but I have been busy with the legal issues.
There will be a hearing on Dec. 7th, 2006 on a stipulated settlement. The proposed language from the court is that the the DFG issuing dredging permits in the Klamath Region "is unlawfull". This is a problem, if the language remains intact the DFG would interpret that as a reason to stop issuing permits in that area and it could spread. We have introduced a change in that language to read "could be unlawfull".
The proposed agreement states that the DFG will do an EIR within 18 months and since they claim to not have the money it is safe to assume that they will not have the EIR completed in that time frame.
The DFG Has presented no study's to affirm that their admission that suction dredging is deleterious to Coho but did add a biologists declaration asserting that to be true. We did not oppose that declaration because it would be a full blown trial but chose to attempt to get the party's to agree on the language change noted above. If the change is not made we are prepaired to go to trial and argue the merits of the case.
We have a plan in any case that I think would be better not to devulge publicly at this time.
We are trying to get the PLP website back up but it is no easy chore. However the attorney bills continue on.
I got a call from David Young our attorney this AM, it appears that on the way to the religious service he saw a large man attacking a 90 year old French woman. David is in his late 60's but chose to intervene to defend her. In the process the 21 year old black attacker turned on him and pummeled him to the ground and the fight insued until the fire dept arrived and it took 5 firefighters to subdue the suspect. In saving the old women from serious harm or worse. Davids reward was a swollen face, two black eyes and some serious injury to an old rotater cup injury.
He is doing fine now and the Police have anounced that he is a real hero. He said he didn't feel like hero but I told him that most hero's get hurt or dead and that is their reward. So it looks to me like PLP has made a good choice for their attorney, one that fights for the public in a court of law and on the streets of Los Angeles.
Thank You David for you courage.
Jerry
There will be a hearing on Dec. 7th, 2006 on a stipulated settlement. The proposed language from the court is that the the DFG issuing dredging permits in the Klamath Region "is unlawfull". This is a problem, if the language remains intact the DFG would interpret that as a reason to stop issuing permits in that area and it could spread. We have introduced a change in that language to read "could be unlawfull".
The proposed agreement states that the DFG will do an EIR within 18 months and since they claim to not have the money it is safe to assume that they will not have the EIR completed in that time frame.
The DFG Has presented no study's to affirm that their admission that suction dredging is deleterious to Coho but did add a biologists declaration asserting that to be true. We did not oppose that declaration because it would be a full blown trial but chose to attempt to get the party's to agree on the language change noted above. If the change is not made we are prepaired to go to trial and argue the merits of the case.
We have a plan in any case that I think would be better not to devulge publicly at this time.
We are trying to get the PLP website back up but it is no easy chore. However the attorney bills continue on.
I got a call from David Young our attorney this AM, it appears that on the way to the religious service he saw a large man attacking a 90 year old French woman. David is in his late 60's but chose to intervene to defend her. In the process the 21 year old black attacker turned on him and pummeled him to the ground and the fight insued until the fire dept arrived and it took 5 firefighters to subdue the suspect. In saving the old women from serious harm or worse. Davids reward was a swollen face, two black eyes and some serious injury to an old rotater cup injury.
He is doing fine now and the Police have anounced that he is a real hero. He said he didn't feel like hero but I told him that most hero's get hurt or dead and that is their reward. So it looks to me like PLP has made a good choice for their attorney, one that fights for the public in a court of law and on the streets of Los Angeles.
Thank You David for you courage.
Jerry
dave may your injuries heal fast, but you can wear them proudly as badges of courage! and you should boost about it to every judge you stand infront of! you have earned the right to brag about it! SALUTE!
Dave, you sir are a noble man! GOOD JOB!
Hope you are feeling better asap.
Thanks for the updates Jerry, and thanks to the PLP for keeping up all the wonderful efforts!
HEHEHE Russ.....very true!
Hope you are feeling better asap.
Thanks for the updates Jerry, and thanks to the PLP for keeping up all the wonderful efforts!
HEHEHE Russ.....very true!
JUDICIAL REVIEW MONTHLY JOURNAL
PRESS RELEASE by Franco Bottocelli, (505) 805-1982
MAY 9, 2007
Who will oppose AB 1032; NOT the New 49'ers and certainly NOT PLP
On February 22, 2007, California Assembly Member Wolk introduced AB 1032; an act to amend Section 5653 of, and to amend, repeal, and add Section 5653.7 of, the California Fish and Game Code. Essentially, AB 1032 would allow the California Department of Fish and Game (DFG) to close waters in the State of California, to private suction dredging only, and because of the existence of any "specie of special concern" which may inhabit that water.
It is rumored that AB 1032 will also allow DFG to skip the, normally, required Administrative Procedures for regulating suction dredging or enacting these new laws. This is not the case. There is nothing in AB 1032 that states this or implies it. On the contrary, AB 1032 still requires DFG to comply with both the California Environmental Quality Act and the Administrative Procedures Act in promulgating regulations for suction dredging; and, because it refers to Fish & Game Code § 5653.9, which it does.
PLP and the New 49'ers, (and their attorneys David Young and James Buchal), are representing that they are opposed to AB 1032. However, it is highly unlikely that they will actually oppose this bill, in any meaningful way. They are expected to either lay down or fake opposition. This is because they already signed an Agreement with DFG to allow any water in the State, or portion thereof, to be closed to dredging if a specie of special concern inhabited that water or portion thereof. (See attached Notice of Entry of Order and Consent Judgment, December 29, 2006, in the Karuk Case; embodying the Settlement Agreement between the Karuk Tribe, DFG, PLP, and the New 49'ers.) Who would believe that PLP or the New 49'ers are going to oppose something they already agreed to; and, in writing in the court? No one that knows any better!
Their efforts to oppose AB 1032, token at best, also reveals that PLP and the New 49'ers have no intention of actually opposing AB 1032. They trumped up a so called Petition to oppose it. Petitioning is not the preferred method for opposing proposed legislation; lobbying is. Petitioning only works when there is a large relative number of petitioners; relative to the number of people in the state; you know, like the environmentalists can muster. A handful of suction dredge miners is not nearly enough petitioners to make this method work. If the members of PLP and the New 49'ers really wanted to oppose AB 1032 they would begin by supporting lobbying against it.
Now that you know that PLP and the New 49'ers have no intention of opposing AB 1032, (because they have already agreed to it) what will you do or what can be done to oppose it? You can answer this question by answering another; who opposed the Settlement Agreement in the Karuk Case that the Karuk Tribe, DFG, PLP and, the New 49'ers, all agreed to, in the first place? That would be the group(s) or person(s) who we believe you can trust to oppose AB 1032.
PRESS RELEASE by Franco Bottocelli, (505) 805-1982
MAY 9, 2007
Who will oppose AB 1032; NOT the New 49'ers and certainly NOT PLP
On February 22, 2007, California Assembly Member Wolk introduced AB 1032; an act to amend Section 5653 of, and to amend, repeal, and add Section 5653.7 of, the California Fish and Game Code. Essentially, AB 1032 would allow the California Department of Fish and Game (DFG) to close waters in the State of California, to private suction dredging only, and because of the existence of any "specie of special concern" which may inhabit that water.
It is rumored that AB 1032 will also allow DFG to skip the, normally, required Administrative Procedures for regulating suction dredging or enacting these new laws. This is not the case. There is nothing in AB 1032 that states this or implies it. On the contrary, AB 1032 still requires DFG to comply with both the California Environmental Quality Act and the Administrative Procedures Act in promulgating regulations for suction dredging; and, because it refers to Fish & Game Code § 5653.9, which it does.
PLP and the New 49'ers, (and their attorneys David Young and James Buchal), are representing that they are opposed to AB 1032. However, it is highly unlikely that they will actually oppose this bill, in any meaningful way. They are expected to either lay down or fake opposition. This is because they already signed an Agreement with DFG to allow any water in the State, or portion thereof, to be closed to dredging if a specie of special concern inhabited that water or portion thereof. (See attached Notice of Entry of Order and Consent Judgment, December 29, 2006, in the Karuk Case; embodying the Settlement Agreement between the Karuk Tribe, DFG, PLP, and the New 49'ers.) Who would believe that PLP or the New 49'ers are going to oppose something they already agreed to; and, in writing in the court? No one that knows any better!
Their efforts to oppose AB 1032, token at best, also reveals that PLP and the New 49'ers have no intention of actually opposing AB 1032. They trumped up a so called Petition to oppose it. Petitioning is not the preferred method for opposing proposed legislation; lobbying is. Petitioning only works when there is a large relative number of petitioners; relative to the number of people in the state; you know, like the environmentalists can muster. A handful of suction dredge miners is not nearly enough petitioners to make this method work. If the members of PLP and the New 49'ers really wanted to oppose AB 1032 they would begin by supporting lobbying against it.
Now that you know that PLP and the New 49'ers have no intention of opposing AB 1032, (because they have already agreed to it) what will you do or what can be done to oppose it? You can answer this question by answering another; who opposed the Settlement Agreement in the Karuk Case that the Karuk Tribe, DFG, PLP and, the New 49'ers, all agreed to, in the first place? That would be the group(s) or person(s) who we believe you can trust to oppose AB 1032.
Hello DRAGOON
You have a very interesting interpretation of what the signed consent decree and AB 1032 says. Every once in a while someone pops out of the wood work and makes allegations such as you have. I am not sure how you come to your conclusions but they are far from correct.
First of all the signed consent decree is an order from Judge Sabraw, ordering the Waters to remain open to suction Dredging until the Ca. DFG completes and Environmental Impact Report (EIR) in 18 months. An EIR requires following the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) and the Calif. Environmental Quality Act (CEQA)
We signed that because CEQA, APA and the public input is what was required of the DFG in the first place, instead of closing the waters by signing a behind the closed door agreement with the Karuk Tribe without any imput from the dredge community.
AB 1032 is asking that the CA. DFG be able to close waters arbitrarily for all aquatic species, not just fish. Arbitrarily means without going through the public input process, which is CEQA and The APA. I also says that we can go to the DFG commission and request a permit but the commission must first find a determination of no impact. Good Luck. The DFG says they are loosing money on the suction dredge permit and would do about anything to get rid of the resposibility. AB 1032 will do that if it passes.
I can not speak for the New 49ers but believe their intent to sue is valid because the Klamath Basin area will be the first on the hit list if AB 1032 passes. But I can speak for PLP and I can tell you that the first river that the DFG closes without public input we will sue the CA. DFG. I tis against half a dozen federal laws to prohibit suction dredge mining and it becomes a Constitutional issue when the take real property ( the Miner who holds a claim owns the mineral, just like someone who owns a house). If the Government anyone else takes real property the must compensate the owner.
I hope that you are not a miner because you part of the problem instead of part of the solution with this type of post. If you are not a miner I can understand your erroneous information and the reason you posted it.
You would not be the first to try and crate a problem for the mining community and you won't be the last but you now have my last explantion to you about what is going on.
You have a nice day
Jerry Hobbs
jerhobbs2@aol.com
You have a very interesting interpretation of what the signed consent decree and AB 1032 says. Every once in a while someone pops out of the wood work and makes allegations such as you have. I am not sure how you come to your conclusions but they are far from correct.
First of all the signed consent decree is an order from Judge Sabraw, ordering the Waters to remain open to suction Dredging until the Ca. DFG completes and Environmental Impact Report (EIR) in 18 months. An EIR requires following the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) and the Calif. Environmental Quality Act (CEQA)
We signed that because CEQA, APA and the public input is what was required of the DFG in the first place, instead of closing the waters by signing a behind the closed door agreement with the Karuk Tribe without any imput from the dredge community.
AB 1032 is asking that the CA. DFG be able to close waters arbitrarily for all aquatic species, not just fish. Arbitrarily means without going through the public input process, which is CEQA and The APA. I also says that we can go to the DFG commission and request a permit but the commission must first find a determination of no impact. Good Luck. The DFG says they are loosing money on the suction dredge permit and would do about anything to get rid of the resposibility. AB 1032 will do that if it passes.
I can not speak for the New 49ers but believe their intent to sue is valid because the Klamath Basin area will be the first on the hit list if AB 1032 passes. But I can speak for PLP and I can tell you that the first river that the DFG closes without public input we will sue the CA. DFG. I tis against half a dozen federal laws to prohibit suction dredge mining and it becomes a Constitutional issue when the take real property ( the Miner who holds a claim owns the mineral, just like someone who owns a house). If the Government anyone else takes real property the must compensate the owner.
I hope that you are not a miner because you part of the problem instead of part of the solution with this type of post. If you are not a miner I can understand your erroneous information and the reason you posted it.
You would not be the first to try and crate a problem for the mining community and you won't be the last but you now have my last explantion to you about what is going on.
You have a nice day
Jerry Hobbs
jerhobbs2@aol.com
thankyou Jerry for setting the record straight! missinformation and misunderstandings continually repeated are the greenies choice of weapons!
Dragoon........good point brought to the table, although quite aggresively.
I would like to ask why, why post it on this site and not others?
Jerry.....thanks for responding, although your response was quite blunt for some reason.
I too noticed that neither the PLP nor the 49er's were on the opposition list and had wondered why not.....nothing wrong with that. And now it's apparent to me, that as signers, they would in fact not be listed. I now understand and am no longer wondering......makes sense.
To both of you.......appearantly you two have an ongoing history/conflict that does not concern the CP site or owners, nor do we have any knowledge of it.
The following is posted here even though it's off this topic to demonstrate clearly why we have made the choices we have.
The ColoradoProspector website from this point on is NOT ALIGNED WITH ANY GROUP SPECIFICALLY!
We WILL continue to support/fight as individuals in the team, and help EDUCATE others to do the same!
Isn't that what it's really all about?
We feel that we have been tossed in the middle of a pre-exsisting conflict like meat to the dogs! AGAIN!!!
NO MORE! This site deserves more respect than that!!!
The ColoradoProspector website and clubs main goals have been, and will continue to be education, communication and TRUTH & RESPECT TO ALL!!
Being tossed in the middle, repeatedly as we have been in the past, has caused folks to judge us, the site, and even say we cause division in the ranks here.......well folks, the divisions are not coming from here!
No, we aren't burned out......just frustrated and feel pissed off/on!
Again, we stand in support of many groups that fight hard for (y)our rights.........there ARE MANY working hard for us and they will continue too! Including the PLP!
Find em'! Help em'! If you choose......but always, always........fight for yourselves! Decide for yourselves!
Do not wait for others to do it for you!
Please folks.....do not mis read this posting.....The PLP does awesome work we think and we are not withdrawing our personal support from them. However...........
We do feel that the ColoradoProspector site and club does need to be recognized for what it does, is working for and the awesome resource it's become because of the positive participation from you all here.
Gotta' go, Rally to finish plannin' for and lots of folks to educate........they are waiting!
Dan-CP
I would like to ask why, why post it on this site and not others?
Jerry.....thanks for responding, although your response was quite blunt for some reason.
I too noticed that neither the PLP nor the 49er's were on the opposition list and had wondered why not.....nothing wrong with that. And now it's apparent to me, that as signers, they would in fact not be listed. I now understand and am no longer wondering......makes sense.
To both of you.......appearantly you two have an ongoing history/conflict that does not concern the CP site or owners, nor do we have any knowledge of it.
The following is posted here even though it's off this topic to demonstrate clearly why we have made the choices we have.
The ColoradoProspector website from this point on is NOT ALIGNED WITH ANY GROUP SPECIFICALLY!
We WILL continue to support/fight as individuals in the team, and help EDUCATE others to do the same!
Isn't that what it's really all about?
We feel that we have been tossed in the middle of a pre-exsisting conflict like meat to the dogs! AGAIN!!!
NO MORE! This site deserves more respect than that!!!
The ColoradoProspector website and clubs main goals have been, and will continue to be education, communication and TRUTH & RESPECT TO ALL!!
Being tossed in the middle, repeatedly as we have been in the past, has caused folks to judge us, the site, and even say we cause division in the ranks here.......well folks, the divisions are not coming from here!
No, we aren't burned out......just frustrated and feel pissed off/on!
Again, we stand in support of many groups that fight hard for (y)our rights.........there ARE MANY working hard for us and they will continue too! Including the PLP!
Find em'! Help em'! If you choose......but always, always........fight for yourselves! Decide for yourselves!
Do not wait for others to do it for you!
Please folks.....do not mis read this posting.....The PLP does awesome work we think and we are not withdrawing our personal support from them. However...........
We do feel that the ColoradoProspector site and club does need to be recognized for what it does, is working for and the awesome resource it's become because of the positive participation from you all here.
Gotta' go, Rally to finish plannin' for and lots of folks to educate........they are waiting!
Dan-CP
Dan and Denise
I would like to apologize for myself and PLP. We will continue help all of those we can and I or PLP will not bring our outside or personal problems to your fine website any more. If we can not be constructive for you and yours we will obstain.
Thank You for bringing this to my attention.
Jerry
I would like to apologize for myself and PLP. We will continue help all of those we can and I or PLP will not bring our outside or personal problems to your fine website any more. If we can not be constructive for you and yours we will obstain.
Thank You for bringing this to my attention.
Jerry
Hi Jerry and Thanks.
I stand by what I said and the PLP because of reasons like this.....Jerry stays and explains/appologized while others run and tuck.
I personally sent this thread back to Dragoon with my questions contained.....we will see if he comes back with the whole story or was just here to poke.
On a positive note: This forum has and will continue to have the dedicated PLP section as it has for years now, we hope it still gets utilized to teach and guide us all in a positive manner.
The CP site is here for your use to help yourselves and each other, and Denise and I will continue to work our fingers to the bone to keep it up and going for everyones use.
CP
I stand by what I said and the PLP because of reasons like this.....Jerry stays and explains/appologized while others run and tuck.
I personally sent this thread back to Dragoon with my questions contained.....we will see if he comes back with the whole story or was just here to poke.
On a positive note: This forum has and will continue to have the dedicated PLP section as it has for years now, we hope it still gets utilized to teach and guide us all in a positive manner.
The CP site is here for your use to help yourselves and each other, and Denise and I will continue to work our fingers to the bone to keep it up and going for everyones use.
CP
SALUTE!
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