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BUYER BEWARE! ILLEGAL REC GUIDE SERVICES
russau
post Oct 8 2014, 06:51 AM
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Thanks for the indepth explaination of this law. so what ive gathered is that it is illegal ONLY if it is a "guided" tour . so a person can do this if he isn't present (onsite) during the tour. maybe im reading to much into this , but if a person is making money off info being sold to them to do this , wouldn't that also be illegal?? takeing pictures for the potential clients, showing detailed maps and shareing advice could be also included in this illegal activity , wouldn't it?
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swizz
post Oct 8 2014, 07:42 AM
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"Guided Tour"??
This thread is about physically guided extraction of minerals from privately held (recreational designated) lands in exchange for money or fees.
They are exploiting and profiting from a resource which is privately owned and designated for limited use to the general public as a courtesy of the land owner. Operations like this tend to tarnish the reputation of "recreational" prospecting. They didn't decide to allow prospecting on these recreational parcels with the intent of everyone setting up small enterprises that profit from their resources. Safety and other legal liabilities can also be a huge concern since these outfits carry no guide or outfitter certifications. They are essentially making up their own rules on private property which is designated for public "use"... not public "profit". They are not designated for the purpose of selling goods or services.
Try to set up a hot dog stand on a rec property, see what happens.


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russau
post Oct 8 2014, 02:46 PM
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Swizz I understand what you have presented. I was referring to Dans post on "guided tours" on public land and was wanting to clarify a point of confusion on my part .If a person is making money off of public land without being his claim or anothers claim with tours weither guided or not , wouldn't that alsp be illegal? to me it sounds like the same thing. Im not trying to justify anyones actions! Im just trying to figure out what the wacoenviromentalists are thinking while reading this forum.
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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE (russau @ Oct 8 2014, 02:46 PM) *
Im just trying to figure out what the wacoenviromentalists are thinking

They are probably as pissed as we are.
They are also likely rejoicing because it's another nice big fat thing they can parade into the media to show the greediness and exploitation that is running amok. Not real mining, an exploitation of recreational users and resources for the purpose of profit.


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post Oct 9 2014, 09:24 AM
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Your question(s) or comparisons are varied Russ but let me see if I can simplify the concept.

Guided tours on public lands for money without proper permitting and insurance is illegal (BLM or FS lands). No one can sell products or services on those lands without written contract from the gov. just like the attended FS campgrounds. A private company has a written contract to attend and charge fees at these FS campgrounds in several states. Without the contract as well as insurances etc they could not operate on FS lands as campground attendants.
Same with guided hunting on BLM or FS lands and even on private lands for hunting.......guided tours are licensed and insured through the proper dept.

Yes in comparing to claims held and presented as "you get access" if you join is also illegal. Mining claims can only be held for one purpose and that is mining, charging fees to access a claim (access is already your right) is just backasswards and IMHO not legal or within the intent of the mining law. Again someone or entity in these cases are directly using FS or BLM lands holding mining claims to charge money. This is not mining and they might as well just set up a pay booth on the claim gate to take the money.....but they couldn't do that now could they? Of course not, that would be vending/selling a product or service from or for access to OUR LANDS!

You just can't pop up a concession stand to sell a service or goods without the "owners" permission no matter where it is. On FS or BLM lands the owners are us the citizens who all have rights to those lands without being charged fees for access or guided tours.
Does that make sense?

Hope I didn't confuse your thought train any further.


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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 09:43 AM
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Well said Dan! That is it in a nutshell.
When I worked at Vagabond Ranch.... we offered guided hikes. The hikes went from the ranch property and up into NF.
In order for us to conduct guided hikes (yes, just hiking) for guests on NF lands our guides were required to have BCA certification. This is an expensive course and very entailing in regard to safety, avalanche training, and leadership.... and there is a good reason for that. Medical emergencies happen, nobody knows the general health of their clientele. It happened at the ranch more than once and all of our bases were covered in regard to guest trauma/health/triage and legal liability. There are a lot of variables involved when unknown people are under your guidance.


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russau
post Oct 9 2014, 12:52 PM
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YEP Dan and Swizz I understand you! But it sounded like(the way I read this) If the person takeing money for this info IS illegal if they go on public lands (BLM or FS) BUT ok if they don't go with these people? this don't make much sense if it is true! But whats the difference? that's what im asking.
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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (russau @ Oct 9 2014, 12:52 PM) *
If the person takeing money for this info IS illegal if they go on public lands (BLM or FS) BUT ok if they don't go with these people? that's what im asking.

You'll need to rephrase that question... is it 2 questions in one? I don't quite understand what you're asking.
It is not illegal to sell information if that is your question. Wanna buy a treasure map?
If you're selling the information while standing on NF, BLM, or private property (rec area) without a vendor permit there might be an issue.


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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 01:27 PM
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ok wait... I think I know what you're asking.
Hypothetical:
Person 1 buys information from Person 2 that is in regard to something pertaining to NFS or BLM managed lands without warranty or disclaimer.
Person 1 later finds out that Person 2 sold them out of date, bogus, or wrong information (without warranty or disclaimer).
Is this illegal? That would be a matter of Person 1 taking Person 2 to small claims court. A Buyer Beware scenario, especially without warranty or disclaimer.
If Person 1 breaks the law because of this bogus information who is liable? Person 1 for being a sucker.
Is this the root of what you're asking?


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russau
post Oct 9 2014, 02:09 PM
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Sort of! let me rephrase it. If person #1 goes onto public land and takes pictures of a good honey hole (shows pictures of gold they found there , and then sells this info back to another person/persons#2,3,4,etc. even though he isn't present when persons #2.3.4 etc go onto public land, would that be legal?
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russau
post Oct 9 2014, 02:15 PM
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I used to go to a lot of different states (before my back gave out) and knowing their laws for each state and keeping them in my binder (for EZ access to them if I need to show them to a officer) gets to be a big job trying to keep the laws straight in my head. I usually do a lot of research each winter on the state that I plan on going to! Heck im still trying to get info from the Missouri Department of Natural Resources. they are very quick on getting or letting people know. Keeping every one in the state of confussion helps keep " them prospectors" at bay!even Colorado has its own problems! several years back I bought my permit to dredge the Arkansa River on a friends claim only to have my money sent back to me after dredge season. what a gift that was.
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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (russau @ Oct 9 2014, 02:09 PM) *
Sort of! let me rephrase it. If person #1 goes onto public land and takes pictures of a good honey hole (shows pictures of gold they found there , and then sells this info back to another person/persons#2,3,4,etc. even though he isn't present when persons #2.3.4 etc go onto public land, would that be legal?

The sale would be legal as you described it. Someone sold a photo to someone else, done deal.
The rest of your question doesn't make sense. Is the seller expected to "accompany" someone after the sale of some photo, what's that about? Whether or not someone "accompanies" someone... or is "present"??? Present and accompanying what? You need to know if that is legal? That doesn't make sense.
What exactly would be the purpose of this "accompaniment". rolleyes.gif
An accompaniment that is mineral related and in exchange for money is illegally guiding, paint it any way you like. Are you trying to put lipstick on a pig?
I can probably guess who the pig is. poke.gif Rhymes with........ dandy, mandy, candy? stirthepot.gif chin.gif stirthepot.gif


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Caveman
post Oct 9 2014, 04:29 PM
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SWIZZ! smiley-laughing021.gif


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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 05:02 PM
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laugh.gif LOL.... sorry, it took some work to decipher his line of questions... and I probably still didn't figure out what the question was.


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swizz
post Oct 9 2014, 05:34 PM
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Why can't these guys do it legally?
Get the permissions and certifications that are required. Operate by the rules of law that are designed to protect clientele, resources, and property rights.
It's expensive, they're lazy, ignorance, greed, just trying to turn a fast buck, just for the love of doing it, other? Take your pick, I don't know. People are people.
Do it legally and nobody has a problem with it. Of course that definitely raises overhead for the seller, increases liability, and severely limits locations where they can guide or "accompany". mellow.gif
.... and I'll lay off on Brandy, Mandy, Dandy, maybe he or she is operating legally for all I know. confused0082[1].gif


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