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BUYER BEWARE! ILLEGAL REC GUIDE SERVICES
Denise
post Aug 6 2014, 09:59 AM
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I agree, thanks fenixsmom and kudos to your husband for doing it right! thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
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fenixsmom
post Aug 6 2014, 11:28 AM
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leonard
post Aug 6 2014, 02:40 PM
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I guess I don't see any difference if I wanted to charge someone for me to take them out to show them how and where to go or joining the GPAA, paying for it, and then getting a book of claims I can go to. Also, not much difference than the BLM charging for a dredge permit to let you go on public land. That was a few years ago. This person is just cutting out the middle man and not giving them a book.About 10 years ago there was an outfit in Buena Vista that you paid for the day and then you could work on his claim. I had no problem with that as his claim was very good. I found an 3/4 pennyweight nugget on it on the Arkansas.
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swizz
post Aug 6 2014, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (leonard @ Aug 6 2014, 08:10 AM) *
I don't personally have a problem with paying someone that knows more than I do to take their time to teach me. It's done all the time at institutions of higher learning.

It is perfectly legal to teach at an "institution of higher learning".... you got that right Leonard.
It is NOT LEGAL to offer paid guide services at a public recreation area without permitting or a type of outfitter/guide license. This can involve first aid training, CPR, liability, and other requirements in place to protect the consumer, etc.... and the guide from being sued for that matter.
Nobody has a problem with legal guide services. Fly by the seat of your pants guide operations at Cache Creek are ILLEGAL.
Get it?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Denise. BLM needs to know. It's just another thing they'll cite as a chronic problem when they close the area for good.


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leonard
post Aug 6 2014, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (swizz @ Aug 6 2014, 04:44 PM) *
It is perfectly legal to teach at an "institution of higher learning".... you got that right Leonard.
It is NOT LEGAL to offer paid guide services at a public recreation area.
Nobody has a problem with legal guide services. Guide operations at Cache Creek are ILLEGAL.
Get it?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Denise. BLM needs to know. It's just another thing they'll cite as a chronic problem when they close the area for good.


If a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention, it's just one more reason for them to close the area completely. The problems at Cache Creek aren't caused by a few guided trips. They are probably some of the very best at obeying the rules. The problems are caused by the people that don't know or don't care about the rules. That and over use of the are because of very few places to go. I don't care if it gets closed down, I have lots of places to go.

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fenixsmom
post Aug 6 2014, 05:00 PM
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Hey Swizz, can you attach a link that says that paid guides can't do so on a public recreational area. I would love to be able to quote that law from the source if possible. I was looking for the laws earlier and I never came across it. The only thing I saw from the blm website was that any guides need to apply for a permit for public land outfitting and they need to be bonded and insured. If you can provide that info I would greatly appreciate it!
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fenixsmom
post Aug 6 2014, 05:00 PM
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Sorry, double posted on accident. Included this sentence for the edit. :D
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swizz
post Aug 6 2014, 05:22 PM
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feinx..... Call the BLM Public Lands Information Center in Lakewood. 303-239-3600
Open 9-4


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swizz
post Aug 6 2014, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (leonard @ Aug 6 2014, 05:00 PM) *
If a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention, it's just one more reason for them to close the area completely.

Leonard

so.... just turn your head and cough while the vultures monetarily prey on noobies right next to you, illegally? If it were legal that's one thing, but COME ON. I know you don't personally go there and could care less whether they close it or not as you stated, but how do you even find it to be moral? I've never even been there but I give a hoot.
I'm not suggesting that "a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention".... but maybe they should now that you mention it. happy112.gif
Colorado Prospector Club is certainly not in the business of advocating illegal activities on recreational lands designated for prospecting, quite the opposite.


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fenixsmom
post Aug 6 2014, 10:42 PM
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Thanks Swizz will do!
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Denise
post Aug 7 2014, 07:48 AM
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sad.gif I find it hard to swallow most of what you are saying Leonard, as all you see as acceptable is stuff you never/will never see the CP club and site do. You know my feelings on those acceptable examples you used. I never told anyone to tell the BLM, just to question the person on licensing and insurance before using their services or you see them providing services in the field. Frustrates me because I see others advocating those actions instead....even recommending these people.

QUOTE
The problems are caused by the people that don't know or don't care about the rules. That and over use of the are because of very few places to go. I don't care if it gets closed down, I have lots of places to go.


You are correct about people that don't know or care about the rules. Person I'm seeing on the net is a good example I think. If you take a pebble and drop it into the water, then another, then another...just a few mind you, the effect is the same that the ripple ends up going a long ways! Get my point? Over use of the area because of very few places to go is just googoopucky! signs019.gif

Part of what we help teach people is researching and finding MANY places to go open to prospecting....in any state! These places also allow you to prospect with hand held equipment (highbanker and dredges included) without a permit. signs021.gif

No hard feelings on different opinions Leonard.
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CP
post Aug 8 2014, 09:19 AM
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Ok let’s see if we can sort out some of the ripples in the pond of confusion that is Cache Creek and guided tours on FS or BLM lands… wacko.gif

Many folks are completely confused by the Cache creek areas rules. First let’s look at the areas designation just so we all understand where/what it is since it’s become a part of this threads discussion.
Cache creek prospecting area is contained within the Arkansas headwater recreational area, it is also a specially designated gold panning/sluicing area within the recreational headwaters area… similar to point bar where there will be no claims on that particular piece of ground, anyone can use for free without worry about claim jumping or research and is actually set up/designated for the recreational activities of gold prospecting within their special rules as stated for each. research.gif

On Cache creek there are no motors allowed while yet on the rest of the Ark headwaters rec area including point bar, you can get a permit to run a motorized unit. Rec areas for rec activities such as this can have these extra rules in place, they do not apply outside of each specified area…..ie Cache creek special rules (like no motors) do not extend outside of the Cache creek prospecting spot. Same with the motorized permits for the Ark headwater area….those do not apply outside of the rec area on any other BLM lands.

There can still be claims around the headwater recreational area borders as well as a few claims within the rec area along with many many privately held parcels in the rec area.
Hopefully that helps the basis of understanding for the rest of this discussion. whew.gif

Now back onto the threads original topic about guides and outfitters prospecting tours or licenses.
From the link Swizz posted on page one for DORA (Colorado’s department of regulatory agencies), you can find the listed professions the “state” regulates/licenses such as guides and outfitters, and this is another very confusing spot for some.
DORA (a state regulatory agency) regulates and issues licenses for the taking of wildlife or fish on lands the outfitter does not own. Think that out….a state agency regulates/issues licenses to take wildlife/fish on FS and BLM lands…kinda’ weird but that is what it is.
So, from the link for guides and outfitters on the DORA website, you’ll find a page that explains their mission as a dept and what their license covers and the gist of that page is….

QUOTE
“The Office of Outfitters Registration registers and regulates individuals and entities that practice in the State of Colorado as Outfitters, which is defined as the ‘taking or attempted take of wildlife’ on land that an Outfitter does not own.

Registration for Outfitters is mandatory in Colorado.

The Office works with several state and federal agencies including the Division of Parks and Wildlife, the Bureau of Land Management and the United States Forest Service in order to share vital information about unregistered outfitters and violations of other agency laws. “


From this one can see that guides and outfitters licenses are only for “the taking or attempted taking of wildlife/fish” on lands the outfitter does not own. Gold or gems are not wildlife or fish so there will not be a license issued for this type of guided tour from that agency.
How about the FS/BLM, do they allow this type of business to operate for prospecting? The answer is no it’s not an allowed activity, rather quite the opposite. It is in fact illegal to operate any commercial business on FS or BLM lands without a written contract from the U.S. government.
For this I don’t have a single handy link off the top of my head sorry, you’ll have to dive into the CFR’s if you want to verify it, but you’ll find it many times over in each one trust me.

For the FS lands you will need to read up on the 36cfr’s
For the BLM lands you will need to read up on the 43cfr’s
CFR’s (code of federal regulations) are to be used in conjunction with the USC (US Code/Law) to apply those laws in a consistent manner from one federal agency and area to another. The USC’s involved will also be quoted within each CFR which usually explains where/why it’s authorized as worded.

Both are a lot of reading but you’ll find that it’s not legal to operate a guided tour (commercial business) for pay on federally administered lands. That goes for any BLM or FS lands, and yes including any recreational areas like the Ark headwaters and Cache creek.
So it’s just not possible to legally run a “guided gold or gem prospecting” tour/trip on any FS or BLM lands. Just as it’s not legal to charge money for access to claims. There are no licenses/permits issued for these guided tours because it’s not allowed by law!

The shortened answer after all this……… you can look and look for that permit/license, but if it does not exist you will not find one, and if there isn’t an issued permit/license then there certainly can’t be a legally operating business of this type!

Hope this helps folks understand all the “ripples in the pond”… char092.gif


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Caveman
post Aug 8 2014, 09:32 AM
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Very clear and understandable, and in "plain language". Bravo, Mr CP! Thanks for taking the time to put that together. Man, I have a LOT of reading to do (and in legalese to boot)! This caveman brain just hurts to even think about that....


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fenixsmom
post Aug 8 2014, 05:21 PM
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Thank you very much for the clarification! I greatly appreciate you setting me straight on that!
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swizz
post Aug 8 2014, 07:52 PM
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Excellent clarification, thanks!


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