GOLD MINING CLAIM near Fairplay Colorado FOR SALE, High Grade Ore Stockpile from London Mine and Placer Grounds Options

[reinhold]

Called the FS line today, and they said that they couldn't help since the gate isn't on their road. Seems Park County's offices are closed on Fridays, so I'll try again next week.

[ASTROBLEME]

I went up to my claim on Wednesday to get some drone photos. There was a man and woman walking near the blockade and a couple of cars were parked outside the gate along the road. Nobody stopped me but I became very concerned about the dangerous conditions that have been created on that blind corner. There were children's bikes with training wheels, unlicensed vehicles and heavy equipment alongside or upon the travel surface of the road at that green gate. It appears that someone is now living "on" the road. Anyone traveling up there needs to use extra caution!



I filed a complaint via Email yesterday morning with the Park County Right-Of-Way Division. Here's their link;
Park County Road Right-Of-Way Division

The Park County GIS data clearly shows the county and USFS ownersip of 696 all the way up to the top of Mosquito Pass. This would be a good visual aid if you're meeting with authorities on this matter. The light green dashed line is USFS road that meets up with Park County 12 at the summit of Mousquito Pass. This road is also a Designated Snowmobile Route as depicted on the current Pike National Forest map.





reinhold, I appreciate your efforts to follow-up on this. This problem needs to be resolved before someone crashes into the gate or worse!

ASTROBLEME

[Clay Diggins]

Is the gate locked Johnny?

All of 9S 78W Section 18 L5 is private patented land. The 120 acre placer patent there in the north of Sections 18 and 17 precedes the public way by three years.

If the gate isn't locked I doubt there is any legal issue. Private landowners have a right to protect their property even if a public way passes through. As across the rest of the west the right thing to do when encountering a gated road is to close the gate after you pass through if it was closed or leave the gate open if it was open.

The fact that the gate indicates private land and no trespassing doesn't change the status of the public way if there is one. ROWs and easements, if they exist, are not an ownership issue but one of estate. The subservient estate (private landowner) doesn't give up their rights to anything but the surface travel of the public across their private lands. To put it another way a public road is an abstract right that doesn't result in the County owning the land the road is located on.

Interestingly the Master Title Plat doesn't indicate a ROW or easement where the road crosses the federally managed lands. That makes things rather ambiguous as far as a right to access the road despite the county and forest designations. That's why you are likely to get a shrug from the Sheriff.

If your passage has been physically prevented it's probably going to be up to you to prove that right in a civil proceeding. If you do have passage but are inconvenienced to open and close the gate I doubt you will find recourse in the law. Just an experience based opinion and not meant to be legal advice.

[ASTROBLEME]

Is the gate locked Johnny?

All of 9S 78W Section 18 L5 is private patented land. The 120 acre placer patent there in the north of Sections 18 and 17 precedes the public way by three years.

If the gate isn't locked I doubt there is any legal issue. Private landowners have a right to protect their property even if a public way passes through. As across the rest of the west the right thing to do when encountering a gated road is to close the gate after you pass through if it was closed or leave the gate open if it was open.

The fact that the gate indicates private land and no trespassing doesn't change the status of the public way if there is one. ROWs and easements, if they exist, are not an ownership issue but one of estate. The subservient estate (private landowner) doesn't give up their rights to anything but the surface travel of the public across their private lands. To put it another way a public road is an abstract right that doesn't result in the County owning the land the road is located on.

Interestingly the Master Title Plat doesn't indicate a ROW or easement where the road crosses the federally managed lands. That makes things rather ambiguous as far as a right to access the road despite the county and forest designations. That's why you are likely to get a shrug from the Sheriff.

If your passage has been physically prevented it's probably going to be up to you to prove that right in a civil proceeding. If you do have passage but are inconvenienced to open and close the gate I doubt you will find recourse in the law. Just an experience based opinion and not meant to be legal advice.

Hello Clay Diggins,

Although I've never encountered the gate being locked, other people have recently and they have been ordered to leave USFS lands by the operator of the gate blockade. My trip a few days ago through this blockade gave me chills...when seeing kid's bikes with training wheels parked right next to the travel surface of the road that comes in from both an uphill blind corner...and a downhill blind corner... that is being traveled by heavy mining equipment and fast moving recreational traffic. Observing a 5th wheel trailer, satellite dish mounted on a ground buried post, barbecue, commercial generator, porta potty...etc... well this appears to be a family residence established upon the county R.O.W. There are laws that govern this situation and I'm seeking to bring the problem to the attention of others to protect everyone involved.

This area isn't governed by the codes of the west. Park County has Roads and Bridges Regulations that are authorized by, inter alia, Sections COLORADO REVISED STAUTES 30-28-101 et. seq.30-28-133, 43-2-114 and 43-2-201.
Amongst the many road and bridge regulations that have been legally established by Park County, there are two easily understandable regulations for the public to be aware of;
2.1.5 C All roads over private lands that have been used adversely without interruption or objection on the part of the owners of such lands for twenty (20) consecutive years are public roadways.
2.1.5 E All roads over the public domain, whether agricultural or mineral, are public roadways.

Park County Road and Bridge Department seeks the cooperation with all law enforcement officials in administering the provisions of the road and bridge regulations. They also, insofar as possible, develop ways and means to improve traffic conditions. This was what happened last year when I complained of being threatened with trespassing charges when traveling on the subject roadway. The issue is, in my opinion, an already settled matter and the right-of-way will be cleared as prescribed by law by the appropriate government entity.

The county has established speed limits approaching the "barricade". When traveling downhill towards there are 20 MPH signs. Traveling uphill, there are no signs leading into the blind corner. Here's two pics taken on the parcel you've identified as being private patented land. This is condition a few days ago of the road approach from uphill that show the reason to use extra caution on this section of public roadway. Both uphill and downhill travel to this living area has blind corners. The heavy equipment snowblower parked on the travel surface of the R.O.W. has US AIRFORCE license plates stating "FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY". The white car and white truck had no visible license plates...as required by law when traveling on public roads!






Thanks for your comments on this matter. It is great to see that other members are willing to step up and assist with an understanding of these pertinent issues to prospectors, miners and the general public that uses these R.O.W.s.

ASTROBLEME

[Clay Diggins]

Hello Clay Diggins,

Although I've never encountered the gate being locked, other people have recently and they have been ordered to leave USFS lands by the operator of the gate blockade.

This area isn't governed by the codes of the west. Park County has Roads and Bridges Regulations that are authorized by, inter alia, Sections COLORADO REVISED STAUTES 30-28-101 et. seq.30-28-133, 43-2-114 and 43-2-201.

2.1.5 C All roads over private lands that have been used adversely without interruption or objection on the part of the owners of such lands for twenty (20) consecutive years are public roadways.
2.1.5 E All roads over the public domain, whether agricultural or mineral, are public roadways.

ASTROBLEME

Thanks for the reply Johnny. I'm not arguing for or against the gate. I think that's a thing neighbors should work out among themselves if possible.

I included the above quotes from your post to seek some clarity and inject some sense of the reality of the situation into your law cites.

The gate is not on forest service managed lands. The land where the gate is placed is private land just as the rest of Lot 5. Whatever passersby misunderstandings may be there is no forest service managed land to be "ordered to leave" from. The land for miles further beyond the gate location are private.

The adverse use is a little tricky when you consider the facts. As the Sheriff implied there have been gates, cables and road blocks placed on or near that gate area several times in the last 20 years. That might just fulfill the part about the owner objecting to the use? It might be a little more than hard to prove continuous adverse use for any prior 20 year period. The public may or may not have a right to travel on that road but basing a public right on an adverse prescriptive easement is a tough row to hoe.

Since 1921 if a County wanted to make an existing private road public there are several actions they need to complete. Among those are a survey, title and deed research and a public platting and adoption by the County with full records and public notice/input. You should be able to locate those records at the Park County Recorders office. Getting certified copies of those records, if they exist, would put you in a stronger position to come to an agreement with your neighbor.

Since the placer patent on which the gate is installed was granted before the road existed it would not be a subject of the 1866 Mining Act public domain road grant (so called RS2477). That grant was only for roads across the public lands - not roads across patented private property.

Right of ways and easements (probably the same thing in Colorado) are a pretty involved subject. Just because there are statutes that agree with your assumptions doesn't mean that those particular statutes apply to your situation. Common law is sometimes more powerful than statutes due to the general nature of common law. I would suggest you try to work something out with your neighbor, it's always a better solution to come to an agreement rather than attempting to invoke the government police power to oppose your neighbors actions.

Private property rights are at the very foundation of this country. Here is the narrative from a very similar case in Teller County.

Darwin Floyd 1

Darwin Floyd 2

I hope that information helps you resolve your perceived problem.

p.s. The code of the west regarding gates is very much a part of Colorado law.

[ASTROBLEME]

Thanks for the reply Johnny. I'm not arguing for or against the gate. I think that's a thing neighbors should work out among themselves if possible.

I included the above quotes from your post to seek some clarity and inject some sense of the reality of the situation into your law cites.

The gate is not on forest service managed lands. The land where the gate is placed is private land just as the rest of Lot 5. Whatever passersby misunderstandings may be there is no forest service managed land to be "ordered to leave" from. The land for miles further beyond the gate location are private.

The adverse use is a little tricky when you consider the facts. As the Sheriff implied there have been gates, cables and road blocks placed on or near that gate area several times in the last 20 years. That might just fulfill the part about the owner objecting to the use? It might be a little more than hard to prove continuous adverse use for any prior 20 year period. The public may or may not have a right to travel on that road but basing a public right on an adverse prescriptive easement is a tough row to hoe.

Since 1921 if a County wanted to make an existing private road public there are several actions they need to complete. Among those are a survey, title and deed research and a public platting and adoption by the County with full records and public notice/input. You should be able to locate those records at the Park County Recorders office. Getting certified copies of those records, if they exist, would put you in a stronger position to come to an agreement with your neighbor.

Since the placer patent on which the gate is installed was granted before the road existed it would not be a subject of the 1866 Mining Act public domain road grant (so called RS2477). That grant was only for roads across the public lands - not roads across patented private property.

Right of ways and easements (probably the same thing in Colorado) are a pretty involved subject. Just because there are statutes that agree with your assumptions doesn't mean that those particular statutes apply to your situation. Common law is sometimes more powerful than statutes due to the general nature of common law. I would suggest you try to work something out with your neighbor, it's always a better solution to come to an agreement rather than attempting to invoke the government police power to oppose your neighbors actions.

Private property rights are at the very foundation of this country. Here is the narrative from a very similar case in Teller County.

Darwin Floyd 1

Darwin Floyd 2

I hope that information helps you resolve your perceived problem.

p.s. The code of the west regarding gates is very much a part of Colorado law.

Clay Diggins,

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to provide clarity for you in this matter.

First, let me correct you on the roadway. You say "The land for miles further beyond the gate location are private" but in fact, the road crosses public lands in several locations on the way up to Mosquito Pass. The first such crossing is onto USFS public land about 3,250 feet from the new gate/blockade.

Contrary to your statements ,there is substantial acreage of USFS land in Sections 7, 8 and 18 of Township 9 South, Range 78 West of the 6th Principal Meridian. The old cable gate was on USFS land. The green pipe gate and blockade is on the Park County Road Right-of-Way. When I was told I was trespassing by the London Mine security guard about a year ago, I made him aware that we were standing on my Mining Claim situate on USFS land. That didn't matter much as the owner contacted me later and threatened filing of trespassing charges. That forced me to file complaints with the federal, state and county governments that manage that area. I was advised that the 696 roadway went back to 1876 and it would remain open for public access. The problem seemed to be solved until very recently when reinhold posted his concerns about being forced to leave USFS lands on the Tonko #1 Mining Claim.

According to Park County Public Works;

"There is no parking or storage allowed of any vehicle, trailer, boat, or any type of property or material, including building supplies, trash cans and dumpsters, in the right-of-way of any public road or on any public property in Park County. Vehicles or other property in the right-of-way may be removed at the owner’s expense. The County is not responsible for any damage to property placed in the right-of-way."
and
"Unauthorized signs may not be placed within the right-of-way of any public road in Park County, nor on any public lands. This includes, but is not limited to, any commercial signs advertising goods or services, real estate signs, political signs, yard sale signs or any sign not authorized by Public Works and the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices. Any unauthorized signs found in the right-of-way will be removed and disposed of. Public Works will not store any signs pulled from the roadside."

[ASTROBLEME]

Clay Diggins,

Yesterday you wrote this in support of your position on the matter;
"Interestingly the Master Title Plat doesn't indicate a ROW or easement where the road crosses the federally managed lands. That makes things rather ambiguous as far as a right to access the road despite the county and forest designations. That's why you are likely to get a shrug from the Sheriff."

It's been my experience that the Master Title Plats and BLM records in general can have errors and omissions or otherwise be incorrect.

ASTROBLEME

[Clay Diggins]

Clay Diggins,

Yesterday you wrote this in support of your position on the matter;
"Interestingly the Master Title Plat doesn't indicate a ROW or easement where the road crosses the federally managed lands. That makes things rather ambiguous as far as a right to access the road despite the county and forest designations. That's why you are likely to get a shrug from the Sheriff."

What's a "Master Title Plat"?

Thanks,

ASTROBLEME

The Master Title Plat (MTP) is the map the federal government maintains of land status for every Township of land in the public land states.

The Master Title Plat, Supplements and Historical Index together contain the entire history, as well as current status, of all the public lands. This includes things like patents, withdrawals, easements, ROWs, land orders, land sales, surveys, government lots, mineral surveys, proclaimed and Weeks Act Forests, National Monuments, National Parks, Grasslands and Seashores, National Recreation Areas, Wild and Scenic Rivers and just about any other change in status from the original free and open public domain land status.

The MTP is not a "map" in the typical sense because it shows no natural features. The base unit is the surveyed or protracted PLSS so there is a recognizable grid to help you relate the MTP features with objects from more traditional maps. You won't see stream beds, roads or mountains on an MTP but you will see any related land status boundary definitions and notations. A stream bed that has been designated as a Scenic or Recreational withdrawal will show the boundaries of that withdrawal. A road that has a valid easement or ROW will show the physical extent of that right of way but not the road itself. ETC. You can see which patents were granted with reservations and generally what those reservations are. By following up with the Supplements (if there are any) and Historical Index research you can find out not only the current status of any portion of the public lands but the entire history of any actions that affected land status in the past.

The MTP uses a unique notation rather than plain English to define the depicted areas. Since many different land status assignments can overlap each other the density of information would be very confusing if it were presented in longhand. There is a certain amount of memorization, practice and a firm grounding in the principles of surveys, patents and status interactions needed to get a full understanding of these records but an intelligent person like yourself could spend a few hours studying the basics to get enough knowledge to get a pretty good grasp on the status in a small area.

The information on the MTP, Supplements, and Historical Index together are the legal definition of federal land status. They override all other maps, documents and Federal government agency records. This stuff is important to understand for anyone dealing with specific portions of the public lands. When I am researching an area for a project on public lands the very first information I study is the MTP, Supplements and Historical Index. If the land is open to the type of project involved I will then proceed to work on the actual project. If the land is closed to that type of project I know any more work wold be futile.

At this point I would usually point you to the resources I've helped to make available to the public. Since that can't happen here I will point you to the source material and with more work you can get the same results. All Federal land records are supposed to be archived and available at the General Land Office (GLO). Although not all records are yet available there Colorado is pretty well covered. Any Colorado MTP, Supplement or Historical Index is available at GLO as well as copies of most patents etc. There may be as many as a million records available in Colorado alone.

For your particular Township you will need the MTP and Supplement 4 (covers in detail where the claim/patent is) to get started. Historical Indexes can be very confusing until you get the hang of them so you might want to look those over after you learn to read the MTP. There are some tutorials and videos on reading MTPs available. An internet search should provide you with some links to those materials.

Such a simple and rarely heard phrase - "Master Title Plat". This is a very deep and informative pond you have dipped your toe into. Enjoy the swim!

[ASTROBLEME]

The Master Title Plat (MTP) is the map the federal government maintains of land status for every Township of land in the public land states.

The Master Title Plat, Supplements and Historical Index together contain the entire history, as well as current status, of all the public lands. This includes things like patents, withdrawals, easements, ROWs, land orders, land sales, surveys, government lots, mineral surveys, proclaimed and Weeks Act Forests, National Monuments, National Parks, Grasslands and Seashores, National Recreation Areas, Wild and Scenic Rivers and just about any other change in status from the original free and open public domain land status.

The MTP is not a "map" in the typical sense because it shows no natural features. The base unit is the surveyed or protracted PLSS so there is a recognizable grid to help you relate the MTP features with objects from more traditional maps. You won't see stream beds, roads or mountains on an MTP but you will see any related land status boundary definitions and notations. A stream bed that has been designated as a Scenic or Recreational withdrawal will show the boundaries of that withdrawal. A road that has a valid easement or ROW will show the physical extent of that right of way but not the road itself. ETC. You can see which patents were granted with reservations and generally what those reservations are. By following up with the Supplements (if there are any) and Historical Index research you can find out not only the current status of any portion of the public lands but the entire history of any actions that affected land status in the past.

The MTP uses a unique notation rather than plain English to define the depicted areas. Since many different land status assignments can overlap each other the density of information would be very confusing if it were presented in longhand. There is a certain amount of memorization, practice and a firm grounding in the principles of surveys, patents and status interactions needed to get a full understanding of these records but an intelligent person like yourself could spend a few hours studying the basics to get enough knowledge to get a pretty good grasp on the status in a small area.

The information on the MTP, Supplements, and Historical Index together are the legal definition of federal land status. They override all other maps, documents and Federal government agency records. This stuff is important to understand for anyone dealing with specific portions of the public lands. When I am researching an area for a project on public lands the very first information I study is the MTP, Supplements and Historical Index. If the land is open to the type of project involved I will then proceed to work on the actual project. If the land is closed to that type of project I know any more work wold be futile.

At this point I would usually point you to the resources I've helped to make available to the public. Since that can't happen here I will point you to the source material and with more work you can get the same results. All Federal land records are supposed to be archived and available at the General Land Office (GLO). Although not all records are yet available there Colorado is pretty well covered. Any Colorado MTP, Supplement or Historical Index is available at GLO as well as copies of most patents etc. There may be as many as a million records available in Colorado alone.

For your particular Township you will need the MTP and Supplement 4 (covers in detail where the claim/patent is) to get started. Historical Indexes can be very confusing until you get the hang of them so you might want to look those over after you learn to read the MTP. There are some tutorials and videos on reading MTPs available. An internet search should provide you with some links to those materials.

Such a simple and rarely heard phrase - "Master Title Plat". This is a very deep and informative pond you have dipped your toe into. Enjoy the swim!

Everyone,

Sounds like it is the same thing that I researched prior to prospecting in the area now known as the Tonko #1 Placer Mining Claim. Here's a copy of the STATUS OF PUBLIC DOMAIN LAND AND MINERAL TITLES that I obtained from BLM many years ago. Please note that there aren't any county or forest service roads depicted on this plat but those roads certainly do exist and are currently in use.

Good advice from Clay Diggins. Thanks,

ASTROBLEME

[Clay Diggins]

Everyone,

Sounds like it is the same thing that I researched prior to prospecting in the area now known as the Tonko #1 Placer Mining Claim. Here's a copy of the STATUS OF PUBLIC DOMAIN LAND AND MINERAL TITLES that I obtained from BLM many years ago. Please note that there aren't any county or forest service roads depicted on this plat but those roads certainly do exist and are currently in use.

Good advice from Clay Diggins. Thanks,

ASTROBLEME

Yes that is a portion of the Master Title Plat for your Township, as it says in the upper right side of each MTP. As I already pointed out you won't see roads or other physical features you will only see a ROW or easement, if one exists, for the road. There is no ROW or easement platted.
Here's an example of what a ROW looks like on a Master Title Plat:



If an MTP contains an error that error becomes the official land status until the error is corrected. All federal agencies and land users rely on the MTP, Supplements, and Historical Index to represent the official legal status of the depicted lands. The MTP is where the buck stops.

If you look closer at Sections 7 and 18 on the MTP you show you will notice there is no notation in those sections except for instructions to see the Supplemental Plat.

Supplemental Plats are used when there is too much detail in a Section to show on the full Township MTP. The Section is left empty on the MTP and the detail is shown only in the Supplemental Plat. The land status in Sections 7 and 18 is so complex they had to make separate Plat maps for each Section. A lot going on there.

For Section 7 you will need to download Supplemental Plat 2.
For Section 18 you will need to download Supplemental Plat 4.

I can see now why you would be confused by the land status there if you are relying on the MTP you show in your post. Without including the Supplements it appears there are no land status issues to consider in those Sections. Download the supplements and I'm sure that will explain the difference in our understanding of the land status in that area.

[ASTROBLEME]

Everyone,

Here's a map that will help with understanding where the road is with respect to our claims.

ASTROBLEME

[ASTROBLEME]

Everyone,

The road known as CR 696 is a county road open to the public and the closure problem has been addressed. This was confirmed by the Master Managers from the United States Forest Service and Park County Colorado government.

If you have difficulty in traveling CR 12 or CR 696 due to interference from any private lands owners, my experience with the following contacts was very positive. Both are knowledgeable with respect to this recurring problem and they have authority over this matter;
Josh Voorhis, District Ranger South Park Ranger District (719) 836-2031
Tom Eisenman, Park County Manager (719) 836-4203

Perhaps you'll get the chance to enjoy the coming fall season by taking a 4X4 road trip on the Mosquito Pass Loop. Hope to see you up on the mountain.

ASTROBLEME

[Denise]

Great information Clay Diggins and ASTROBLEME, thank you for sharing it with us.
I appreciate your interaction very much!

[reinhold]

Everyone,

The road known as CR 696 is a county road open to the public and the closure problem has been addressed. This was confirmed by the Master Managers from the United States Forest Service and Park County Colorado government.

If you have difficulty in traveling CR 12 or CR 696 due to interference from any private lands owners, my experience with the following contacts was very positive. Both are knowledgeable with respect to this recurring problem and they have authority over this matter;
Josh Voorhis, District Ranger South Park Ranger District (719) 836-2031
Tom Eisenman, Park County Manager (719) 836-4203

Perhaps you'll get the chance to enjoy the coming fall season by taking a 4X4 road trip on the Mosquito Pass Loop. Hope to see you up on the mountain.

ASTROBLEME

Thanks, Astrobleme! I had it on my list to call Park Cty ROW today, but I won't bug them now.

I also enjoyed your discussion with Clay -- learned a lot!

[ASTROBLEME]

We have revised our asking price for the gold stockpile at London Mountain due to the changes in gold value, new information and the recent inquiries of our for sale offering.

The asking price for our 60 acre gold placer mining claim is now $2,300,00.00 (Two Million, Three Hundred Thousand U.S. Dollars).

While our asking price is negotiable, we feel that this is fair, given the consideration for the weighted average stated in the attached report of 0.19 opt, calculated using the estimated 172,000 tons in the stockpile, the math works out to be 32,680 ounces of gold.

Thanks to all those expressing interest in this offering to date. We hope that you find the price reduction appealing.