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Colorado Prospector - Gem and mineral prospecting and mining forums _ Valuable References _ Location Certificates

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Apr 24 2013, 06:38 PM

I have a mess. BLM did a meets and bounds survey in my area and changed my property lines after 150 years. I have been on the same claims for over 26 years. In the last year I have uncovered every original property marker according to my deeds from the 1800's. Someone intentionally obliterated all of them. Now that same person is trying to prevent me from getting any corrections with violence. BLM recorded no evidence of almost all of them in their survey in 2003. They reset markers. After a year and a half of trying to figure out what happened I realized I just had to prove my shafts and tunnels to the mines have not moved. I own 3 seperate pieces of property. On 2 of those properties I own the mineral rights and the surface rights. On one I own all the mineral rights and only some of the surface rights. If I fix the one with the partial surface rights all the rest will fall back into place. My question is, do I just need the location certificates to get BLM to make the correction. Surveyors say" BLM changed your property lines now live with it." No one will pay any attention to the mine shafts and tunnels which I do not understand. The claim jumping started around 2001. I would not have noticed but the whole area burned in the Fourmile Fire including my home and all my land. When I came home to rebuild my lines had moved. In Boulder County you can encroach on someones land for 18 years and then it is yours. The fire happened only 10 years after the encroachment started. The claim jumper figured I would never know. I still have time to fix this. Boulder County had the location certificates and everything measures correctly according to the certificates and plats according to my property description. Do I need new ones? BLM has now given the claim jumper our property without verifying the shafts, tunnels and location certificates. The claim jumper had 4 structures in trespass on one claim and moved his property lines so he would not have to purchase his trespass issues. No one at Boulder county will help and BLM wants me to file a protest against their 2003 meets and bounds survey. BLM also pinned my horseshoe pit pins almost 100' away from the real line. Help! Even lawyers want me to file quiet title actions in federal court. BLM says they have no money to fix anything and I am just getting a run around.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Apr 24 2013, 06:42 PM

One more thing. I just want this fixed quietly and peacefully. I am willing to bare the cost to have surveyors fix it. I do not want to end up in federal court. I will if I have to.

Posted by: swizz Apr 24 2013, 07:23 PM

Hi Gold Hill Miner and welcome to CP. sign0016.gif
I sounds like you have two separate problems here.
1. The claim jumper
2. Private property lines vs County
I can offer advice regarding the claim jumper but someone else (hopefully Dan) can chime in on the private property issue.
Claim Jumper:
Regardless of your boundary markers having been destroyed or moved... THE BOUNDARIES REMAIN THE SAME as stated in your County and BLM filing records. Claim owner is required to properly post a Location Cert and Boundary Markers upon initial filing and record as per protocol (including map, etc). Once this is on file with the County and BLM it cannot change unless amended by the claim owner. This is legal evidence, period... regardless of vandalized, moved, or stolen physical markers. There is no law stating that a claim owner is required to maintain the markers once they have been properly placed during initial filing. I have amended my claim filings to include GPS coordinates.... not necessary but a good idea.
To get rid of anyone in violation of Mineral Trespass: There are several ways to deal with claim jumpers. I prefer not to approach them if it is obvious what they are doing. As a fellow claim owner I suggest collecting evidence with a quality camera or video surveillance if you have that option. The County Sheriff is responsible for law enforcement upon mineral claims. This is who you need to call, especially if the suspect(s) can be caught in the act. If they are busted you are entitled to pursue compensation for estimated mineral loss, estimated reclamation, court costs, etc.
Now... hopefully someone can give you advice regarding your private property lines. That's a little deeper.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Apr 25 2013, 06:00 PM

QUOTE (swizz @ Apr 24 2013, 08:23 PM) *
Hi Gold Hill Miner and welcome to CP. sign0016.gif
I sounds like you have two separate problems here.
1. The claim jumper
2. Private property lines vs County
I can offer advice regarding the claim jumper but someone else (hopefully Dan) can chime in on the private property issue.
Claim Jumper:
Regardless of your boundary markers having been destroyed or moved... THE BOUNDARIES REMAIN THE SAME as stated in your County and BLM filing records. Claim owner is required to properly post a Location Cert and Boundary Markers upon initial filing and record as per protocol (including map, etc). Once this is on file with the County and BLM it cannot change unless amended by the claim owner. This is legal evidence, period... regardless of vandalized, moved, or stolen physical markers. There is no law stating that a claim owner is required to maintain the markers once they have been properly placed during initial filing. I have amended my claim filings to include GPS coordinates.... not necessary but a good idea.
To get rid of anyone in violation of Mineral Trespass: There are several ways to deal with claim jumpers. I prefer not to approach them if it is obvious what they are doing. As a fellow claim owner I suggest collecting evidence with a quality camera or video surveillance if you have that option. The County Sheriff is responsible for law enforcement upon mineral claims. This is who you need to call, especially if the suspect(s) can be caught in the act. If they are busted you are entitled to pursue compensation for estimated mineral loss, estimated reclamation, court costs, etc.
Now... hopefully someone can give you advice regarding your private property lines. That's a little deeper.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Apr 25 2013, 06:30 PM

Thank You! I just needed to know what would work with the BLM. I need them to agree to let me fix the property lines or they can. The lines are the claims. The County does not have a clue about anything on mining claims. They are more then happy to issue permits for mining. They did say they did not care where anyone built as long as an engineer signs off on a project. Now they are letting the claim jumper build on property BLM sold to me also. I also noticed it is basically a slap on the wrist for destroying property markers on mining claims. I think it is 250.00 a marker. It is a terrible shame when these are historic and had been there over 150 years. We even found baring tree signs ripped down or trees intentionally cut. Since Location Certificates are legal and binding documents I hope BLM will do the right thing. As far as the County goes including the Sheriff they keep saying the violence from the claim jumping neighbor is a civil matter. I have verified it is definitely a criminal matter! These claims in this area were also verified 11 times over 100 years until BLM recorded no evidence of the markers in 2003. They say they went off a claim corner which worked for them. Well claim corners can move. Why wouldn't they use location certificates in the first place in such a historic mining area? We barely get phone reception up there so I also don't believe that GPS is all that acurate either. Any advise on how to present the protest with the location certificates to BLM? You don't just walk in to a bunch of good old boys and tell them they are wrong.

Posted by: swizz Apr 25 2013, 07:05 PM

QUOTE (Gold Hill Miner @ Apr 25 2013, 06:30 PM) *
Any advise on how to present the protest with the location certificates to BLM? You don't just walk in to a bunch of good old boys and tell them they are wrong.

"Good old boys"?? Screw that... they are Federal employees that work for YOU. (pardon my French sir)
Reconstruct your Boundary Markers and Location Cert Marker exactly as per your original description on your County and BLM files. Wouldn't hurt to mark GPS coordinates.
That's that... those are your boundaries, PERIOD. If someone (BLM, County, or claim jumpers) wants to challenge that fact they can pull your files from the BLM or County records. If they want to challenge you in court then bring those public records to court and show the judge. Pretty plain and simple.
As far as the illegal structures that sprouted within your claim boundaries... destroy them or use them as evidence if you are trying to build a case. Is this a patented claim?
Regarding claim jumpers and enforcement... Mineral Trespass is a Federal matter and considered a minimal Class C Felony. Federal violations are to be handled by the respective County Sheriff's Dept. If they won't cooperate or understand that this is their responsibility I might suggest contacting the State Police for further advice. If they are not delegated to handle it, I bet they would know which department is. I wish I was nearer and I could physically help you resurrect those markers. That really gets my goat.
If this were the old west (and I often wish it were) I think that this claim jumping matter would have already been handled by whipping, exile, hangin'... or worse. char092.gif

Posted by: ColoradoProspector Apr 27 2013, 12:15 PM

Boy that sure does sound like a can o' worms for sure Gold Hill Miner!

Are these patented mining claims? I'm assuming they are but then you said "BLM sold them to you"....this doesn't sound right.
If they are patented claims then those boundries would be well established in old records even if field markers are lost. Surveying laws are very old and well understood that any new survey or more accurately "resurvey" must be done from exsisting or known survey markers in the field. No one.....not even a surveyor can just "move pins/markers" cause they want to.
It's a felony to remove or deface any survey markers. Surveyors are also required to file their entire survey (including field notes) within one year of complettion to BLM. So that means any survey pin you find with id number can be looked up at BLM's office in it's entire content with field notes...even ones from way way back.
You'll be searching on microphish in their office to get the records and then paying by the page for copies but you could then show/prove where the old surveyors put the pins/markers as well as get the moving surveyors field notes as to why the adjustments were made.
What's on the ground will take precedence if left long enough without contesting by the encroached upon (you).....the government doesn't care and yes at this point it becomes a civil matter between two owners. Without your re-assertion they will win.

What is also troubling......it's sounds to me like there could be a possibility of gov officials using their office/job to violate rights and actually take property from a citizen? You might also want to bone up on the RICO act which if I remeber it right is used to prosecute gov officials who abuse their authority in such manners......within this act you not only can sue the dept but also the individual and be compensated from their personal $$!

I would say you definately do not need any new location certs done.....again, I'm still wondering about the claims themselves......Location claims (unpatented) would have location certificates.
You stated you lived on them so I'm still thinking you are on patented claims.

Another thing you could do is once you've got the older files/field notes and the new ones......Hire your own surveyor to at least review the files first and then possibly redo/re-establish the old survey in the field if they feel the new to be bullshit.
When I worked on the survey party, it was always paramount to find exsisting field markers and work from them....basically redo/re-establish current to work any surveys period!

I'm no lawyer but hopefully the info we've offered here can give you a hand and good luck with this....sounds like you had a rough go of it so far.
Welcome to the forum also, we'll be looking forward to positive updates on your progress.

CP

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner May 6 2013, 02:43 PM

QUOTE (ColoradoProspector @ Apr 27 2013, 01:15 PM) *
Boy that sure does sound like a can o' worms for sure Gold Hill Miner!

Are these patented mining claims? I'm assuming they are but then you said "BLM sold them to you"....this doesn't sound right.
If they are patented claims then those boundries would be well established in old records even if field markers are lost. Surveying laws are very old and well understood that any new survey or more accurately "resurvey" must be done from exsisting or known survey markers in the field. No one.....not even a surveyor can just "move pins/markers" cause they want to.
It's a felony to remove or deface any survey markers. Surveyors are also required to file their entire survey (including field notes) within one year of complettion to BLM. So that means any survey pin you find with id number can be looked up at BLM's office in it's entire content with field notes...even ones from way way back.
You'll be searching on microphish in their office to get the records and then paying by the page for copies but you could then show/prove where the old surveyors put the pins/markers as well as get the moving surveyors field notes as to why the adjustments were made.
What's on the ground will take precedence if left long enough without contesting by the encroached upon (you).....the government doesn't care and yes at this point it becomes a civil matter between two owners. Without your re-assertion they will win.

What is also troubling......it's sounds to me like there could be a possibility of gov officials using their office/job to violate rights and actually take property from a citizen? You might also want to bone up on the RICO act which if I remeber it right is used to prosecute gov officials who abuse their authority in such manners......within this act you not only can sue the dept but also the individual and be compensated from their personal $$!

I would say you definately do not need any new location certs done.....again, I'm still wondering about the claims themselves......Location claims (unpatented) would have location certificates.
You stated you lived on them so I'm still thinking you are on patented claims.

Another thing you could do is once you've got the older files/field notes and the new ones......Hire your own surveyor to at least review the files first and then possibly redo/re-establish the old survey in the field if they feel the new to be bullshit.
When I worked on the survey party, it was always paramount to find exsisting field markers and work from them....basically redo/re-establish current to work any surveys period!

I'm no lawyer but hopefully the info we've offered here can give you a hand and good luck with this....sounds like you had a rough go of it so far.
Welcome to the forum also, we'll be looking forward to positive updates on your progress.

CP

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner May 6 2013, 02:57 PM

I have been trying to get a survey company to quote me on GPS coordinates to go along with one of my Location Certificates. I just need to provide proof to the BLM that one of my 5 patented mines did not move. Then BLM will give me permission to resurvey, repin all of my claims. The one on the most western edge if reset will move all the rest back into place. I was just quoted 5-8000.00 for GPS coordinates, corners set and a plat. I only asked for coordinates to go along with the Location Certificate. The shaft and tunnel are well exposed. Any recommendations on who I call. Am I better off getting a new location certificate for one mine? Would that be cheaper then the coordinates? Am I just be taken for a ride by another Boulder surveyor? The words Location Certificate seem to be ignored constantly in this situation. BLM says all that matters is what is on the ground (shafts and tunnels) Then while standing on my shaft they said all that matters are corners. What the F.?

Posted by: russau May 8 2013, 07:53 AM

i would assume that the $5-8000. would be a deductable expense. wouldnt it??

Posted by: ColoradoProspector May 8 2013, 09:31 AM

I still think you need to dig up the original survey notes from the original claim work as I posted previously. A third survey at this point will only further complicate the situation if it's not done to re-establish the original markers/pins.
You don't need permission from BLM to survey either......it's your money that hires a surveyor and law requires all surveys done by licensed surveyors to be entered into the BLM database....not just the ones BLM says okey dokey too. They (BLM) do review the surveys for completeness before acceptance but all surveys are entered into the database.

Yes you should definately get another surveyor (maybe different county) and maybe not mention the location certs to them......might be too confusing to a surveryor in todays world. You need a survey of the old original survey, personally I would dig up those records at BLM myself and attempt to re-track the field notes to the old markers/pins on the ground first. Then possibly hire the surveyors to re-establish those original markers/boundries in the field.
Of course taking digital photo records of all markers (new and old) found to show the different placements you've described. Take a gps along with you as well and record your own cords.

Your patented claims (lodes) are a specific size and shape by law which was of course orientated along the dyke or ore body involved......ie inclination or declination and direction of the mineral deposit dictated where the lode claim was laid out.
The dig site (tunnel) would have been centered in the claim.
They sure didn't move the tunnel or the ore body so it should be obvious in the field if they moved your boundries as now this tunnel site would not be centered on the claim as it's supposed to be......and BLM should know that!!

Sounds like the run around to me still......I'd read up on that RICO act too.......BLM should not be abusing the office to intimidate property owners into giving up thier property!

Whew 5-8k.......WOWSER!! smiley-shocked003.gif
They sure aren't getting any cheaper on the surveys are they?

Posted by: russau May 9 2013, 05:13 AM

Dans suggestion seems tobe the best/easiest way out of this mess! i like the suggestion of looking into the Rico report!

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Jun 15 2013, 10:33 PM

I hired a survey co. to record the GPS coordinates on one of my claims. They emailed me back 1 sheet of plain paper with 12 points, 1 sheet of 12 GPS coordinates and some photos. Point 7 missing on all. Plain white sheets of paper, no lines and not even on their letterhead. No mine claim name even. They said they won't back it up. But they want a thousand bucks. They want 5000 more to put it on a plat. I went to Boulder County GIS to pick up a copy of BLM's plat the county used and they threw it out is what they said. It is on BLMs website and i think the survey co. can use it instead of coming out and charging 5000.00 more. It is clear as could be the BLM set my new lower corners 150' E. There are no shafts and tunnels at all on what BLM pinned. They are fully exposed to the west. i do have the deed, the original plat and the location certificate showing exact measurements.

 Plot.pdf ( 291.03K ) : 389
 

Posted by: ColoradoProspector Jun 20 2013, 10:13 AM

The new gps cords are from the old claim paper work or onsite monuments or the new survey?
For 1k I would hope it was onsite actual monuments (rock piles) gps points with your walk around that single claim. If so then comparing those points with your old survey notes should help. You've kinda' given little info on your update as to what was recorded on the gps points so I'm just guessing.
Your old paperwork/surveys is where you'll find the real answer as I've already said earlier in this thread.Even with new gps cords/surveys etc......You'll still need to prove your older timeline to re-establish/prove those boundries prior to the said moving of the markers.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Mar 7 2015, 02:10 PM

Yes the claim is patented. It now looks like the claim was amended in the early 1900's. When BLM re-pinned the claim in 2003, they may have moved it back on its pre-amended location, maybe because the old markers were left in place. The claim is now on what was BLM land prior to 2003. Off the shafts and tunnels. There is a substantial spring on this location. Would a miner have to relocate because of water laws? Could an amended mine claim be cancelled 100 years later for no reason?

Posted by: ColoradoProspector Mar 9 2015, 11:18 AM

Hi Gold Hill Miner, been a while since we'd heard anything in this thread. Sorry to hear you're still having difficulties figuring this problem out in the field.
No I wouldn't think that a properly amended survey of any age would just be disregarded, that just isn't how the survey world works. Claim owners wouldn't need to "relocate" because of water either.
There could have been a severe error in the old amendment to the survey possibly, that could cause it to be repined.
Again just wondering, I don't have all the info to work with so just offering possibilities.
Another thought, is there any chance that the newer survey in 2003 done by BLM serves a completely different purpose unrelated to your patented mining claims in that area?

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Mar 13 2015, 06:46 PM

QUOTE (ColoradoProspector @ Mar 9 2015, 12:18 PM) *
Hi Gold Hill Miner, been a while since we'd heard anything in this thread. Sorry to hear you're still having difficulties figuring this problem out in the field.
No I wouldn't think that a properly amended survey of any age would just be disregarded, that just isn't how the survey world works. Claim owners wouldn't need to "relocate" because of water either.
There could have been a severe error in the old amendment to the survey possibly, that could cause it to be repined.
Again just wondering, I don't have all the info to work with so just offering possibilities.
Another thought, is there any chance that the newer survey in 2003 done by BLM serves a completely different purpose unrelated to your patented mining claims in that area?

Yes, the reason they did this cadastral survey was to identify the BLM pockets of land for disposal. They ended up re- pinning every claim corner over 1/2 half the mountain section they were working on. Unfortunately I found the claim that caused several other to move 50-100' down a mountain off their shafts and tunnels. After the BLM survey Corner #1 of said claim is now pinned #4, Corner #2 is now #3. Like turning a page in a book. What a complete disaster across the rest of the mountain.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Mar 13 2015, 06:53 PM

QUOTE (Gold Hill Miner @ Mar 13 2015, 07:46 PM) *
Yes, the reason they did this cadastral survey was to identify the BLM pockets of land for disposal. They ended up re- pinning every claim corner over 1/2 half the mountain section they were working on. Unfortunately I found the claim that caused several other to move 50-100' down a mountain off their shafts and tunnels. After the BLM survey Corner #1 of said claim is now pinned #4, Corner #2 is now #3. Like turning a page in a book. What a complete disaster across the rest of the mountain.

What is the easiest, most simple way to show BLM? Besides a 5 minute jaw dropping visit to said claim. They also won't look at GPS coordinates that match all county records, the location certificate, or the mineral survey. This claim was amended in 1902. The first Location was done in 1895. I found the pre amended location cert., not the 1895 mineral survey. I was hoping BLM re-pinned the claim in the pre amended position because there may have been an old marker still in place. I am waiting for the original patent package from WA.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Mar 13 2015, 06:55 PM

QUOTE (Gold Hill Miner @ Mar 13 2015, 07:53 PM) *
What is the easiest, most simple way to show BLM? Besides a 5 minute jaw dropping visit to said claim. They also won't look at GPS coordinates that match all county records, the location certificate, or the mineral survey. This claim was amended in 1902. The first Location was done in 1895. I found the pre amended location cert., not the 1895 mineral survey. I was hoping BLM re-pinned the claim in the pre amended position because there may have been an old marker still in place. I am waiting for the original patent package from WA.


Posted by: Gene Kooper May 24 2015, 06:24 PM

Hi Gold Hill Miner,

I've read through this thread and have some ideas that may be of help in resolving your problem. I found the BLM's dependent resurvey field notes that I believe includes your mining properties. They are available online at http://www.glorecords.blm.gov and can be downloaded as a PDF file for no fee. If you don't want to disclose the actual claims for privacy reasons, we can discuss some options in general terms. As you mentioned above, the BLM conducted this dependent resurvey in order to delineate the gaps and gores between patented mineral surveys that are still part of the Public Lands. Through the statutory authority given to the U.S. Secretary of the Interior, the Colorado BLM is delegated the task of determining the boundaries of the Public Lands within the State of Colorado.

In this case, your options to correct the 2003 dependent resurvey are restricted. An affected party may file a protest with the BLM, challenging the results of a dependent resurvey that they believe has failed to retrace and reestablish the original surveyed lines. If you had protested the survey prior to the filing of the plat, your burden of proof would have been to establish by a preponderance of the evidence that the dependent resurvey was not an accurate retracement and reestablishment of the original survey. Since the survey has long ago been approved and filed, your protest will need to meet the burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence that the resurvey was either fraudulent or grossly in error.

I realize that this doesn't seem fair, but if you can demonstrate that the boundaries of your claims do not match the mining improvements on your properties by 100 feet, the BLM may regard the lines that they reestablished in the 2003 dependent resurvey meet the "gross error" threshold.

I am a licensed land surveyor and worked on a project near Eldora where a 1943 dependent resurvey of the township had established brass caps for numerous corners that were regarded as lost. In one instance the brass cap was over 700 feet from the original stone section corner. In the late 1990s, the Boulder County Surveyor found the original stone corner and its bearing trees (which established that the stone had not been disturbed or moved). The BLM then conducted a Corrective Dependent Resurvey in the area in which they held the original stone corners and destroyed the 1943 brass cap monuments.

Gene Kooper, PLS

Posted by: CP May 26 2015, 09:59 AM

Hi Gene, welcome to the forums. sign0016.gif

Great information and thank you for posting it. happy088.gif It's nice to have a surveyors input and we all look forward to your future input.
Make yourself right at home browsing around we have an awesome group of folks around the forums and club.

Posted by: MikeS May 27 2015, 03:38 PM

Welcome to the forums Gene! thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

Posted by: Gene Kooper May 27 2015, 10:20 PM

Thanks CP and MikeS.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Jun 8 2015, 07:40 AM

QUOTE (Gene Kooper @ May 24 2015, 07:24 PM) *
Hi Gold Hill Miner,

I've read through this thread and have some ideas that may be of help in resolving your problem. I found the BLM's dependent resurvey field notes that I believe includes your mining properties. They are available online at http://www.glorecords.blm.gov and can be downloaded as a PDF file for no fee. If you don't want to disclose the actual claims for privacy reasons, we can discuss some options in general terms. As you mentioned above, the BLM conducted this dependent resurvey in order to delineate the gaps and gores between patented mineral surveys that are still part of the Public Lands. Through the statutory authority given to the U.S. Secretary of the Interior, the Colorado BLM is delegated the task of determining the boundaries of the Public Lands within the State of Colorado.

In this case, your options to correct the 2003 dependent resurvey are restricted. An affected party may file a protest with the BLM, challenging the results of a dependent resurvey that they believe has failed to retrace and reestablish the original surveyed lines. If you had protested the survey prior to the filing of the plat, your burden of proof would have been to establish by a preponderance of the evidence that the dependent resurvey was not an accurate retracement and reestablishment of the original survey. Since the survey has long ago been approved and filed, your protest will need to meet the burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence that the resurvey was either fraudulent or grossly in error.

I realize that this doesn't seem fair, but if you can demonstrate that the boundaries of your claims do not match the mining improvements on your properties by 100 feet, the BLM may regard the lines that they reestablished in the 2003 dependent resurvey meet the "gross error" threshold.

I am a licensed land surveyor and worked on a project near Eldora where a 1943 dependent resurvey of the township had established brass caps for numerous corners that were regarded as lost. In one instance the brass cap was over 700 feet from the original stone section corner. In the late 1990s, the Boulder County Surveyor found the original stone corner and its bearing trees (which established that the stone had not been disturbed or moved). The BLM then conducted a Corrective Dependent Resurvey in the area in which they held the original stone corners and destroyed the 1943 brass cap monuments.

Gene Kooper, PLS


Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Jun 8 2015, 08:29 AM

Thanks for your reply. I have the burden of proof. Unfortunately everyone makes mistakes occasionally. A whole mountainside of mine claims with matching location certificates (legal binding documents) do not just move down a hill 75-100', off their shafts and tunnels. BLM actually recorded 99% of the the claim lines in question not monumented, re- monumented and forgot to move the shafts and tunnels with the new lines. I have located all the original lines while someone follows after me and does further damage to them. Fortunately no one can move the shafts and tunnels. Since several claims have been moved re monumented, some shafts and tunnels have been moved onto BLM vacant pockets. This creates a whole new problem with leasing for mining. BLM had several vacant pockets of land between the claims. They definitely eliminated several pockets by re monumenting lines, sold some that were actually privately owned and disregarded a centerline survey. i have a surveyor that did a point certification for my most westerly line on one claim. I found where BLM made the mistake. They pinned a corner #4 at a corner #1. This brought on a whole ripple effect with several claims. Now the surveyor is platting the correct location and the new BLM monumented location for the burden of proof. Because of the fire, the correct lines are clearly visible from a higher viewpoint. So are the shafts and tunnels.

Posted by: Gene Kooper Jun 15 2015, 10:05 PM

QUOTE (Gold Hill Miner @ Mar 13 2015, 07:53 PM) *
What is the easiest, most simple way to show BLM? Besides a 5 minute jaw dropping visit to said claim. They also won't look at GPS coordinates that match all county records, the location certificate, or the mineral survey. This claim was amended in 1902. The first Location was done in 1895. I found the pre amended location cert., not the 1895 mineral survey. I was hoping BLM re-pinned the claim in the pre amended position because there may have been an old marker still in place. I am waiting for the original patent package from WA.


QUOTE (Gold Hill Miner @ Jun 8 2015, 09:29 AM) *
Thanks for your reply. I have the burden of proof. Unfortunately everyone makes mistakes occasionally. A whole mountainside of mine claims with matching location certificates (legal binding documents) do not just move down a hill 75-100', off their shafts and tunnels. BLM actually recorded 99% of the the claim lines in question not monumented, re- monumented and forgot to move the shafts and tunnels with the new lines. I have located all the original lines while someone follows after me and does further damage to them. Fortunately no one can move the shafts and tunnels. Since several claims have been moved re monumented, some shafts and tunnels have been moved onto BLM vacant pockets. This creates a whole new problem with leasing for mining. BLM had several vacant pockets of land between the claims. They definitely eliminated several pockets by re monumenting lines, sold some that were actually privately owned and disregarded a centerline survey. i have a surveyor that did a point certification for my most westerly line on one claim. I found where BLM made the mistake. They pinned a corner #4 at a corner #1. This brought on a whole ripple effect with several claims. Now the surveyor is platting the correct location and the new BLM monumented location for the burden of proof. Because of the fire, the correct lines are clearly visible from a higher viewpoint. So are the shafts and tunnels.

When a claimant makes the discovery of a locatable mineral, a location certificate must then be recorded at the county. It describes that portion of the Public Lands that a miner claims the possessory right to the mineral estate. The claimant retained the mining rights as long as they met all of the requirements in the Federal and State mining laws and regulations thereunder and made a minimum of $100 in mining improvements annually.

Once upon a time, a mining claimant wishing a patent to mineral lands would begin the process by submitting an, "Application for Survey" to the Surveyor's General office. The application would include a certified copy of the location certificate. In many cases the original location certificate had to be amended to correct errors and/or conform to the regulations in force at the time it was located.

After a survey order was issued, a mineral surveyor would conduct the survey. You probably found a certified copy of the location certificate in the patent package from WA. After a mining claim has gone to patent, the location certificate is little more than a historical curiosity. The patent, approved plat and official field notes are the "legal binding documents" for patented claims. I point that out that because the plat and official field notes include ties to all of the mining improvements that were made to the claim at the time of the "patent" survey. A minimum of $500 in mining improvements were required before the claim could be patented.

Since the locations of the mining improvements are tied to one or more corners of your claim, their positions can be used to reestablish the original lines of the mineral survey. Both private surveyors and BLM Cadastral surveyors use mining improvements to set lost corners. For example, the discovery shaft/cut/adit is a natural monument. Natural monuments usually hold over artificial monuments because they are regarded legally as being more certain. Using your example that shafts don't move, their position is more certain than a conflicting stone monument, esp. if it has no original accessories.

One of the techniques that I employ before doing a mineral survey retracement is to draw up the claim boundaries and its mining improvements. I then "locate" the claim on an aerial photograph, fine tuning its position by aligning the mining improvements with disturbed areas on the photo. I'm not saying that you and your surveyor should necessarily do the same. However, your burden of proof to overturn the BLM's 2003 dependent resurvey is to show either fraud or gross error. Meeting that burden won't be easy. You may need to plot up several mineral surveys near your claim(s) to show the BLM that the pattern of mining improvements is unique. The BLM may disagree with your conclusions. If so, your next option would be to appeal to the Interior Board of Land Appeals (IBLA).

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Sep 13 2015, 01:30 PM

Here is the claim. I was promised 2 week for delivery of BLM's new lines in comparison to this plat and location certificate that goes with it by a surveyor. It has been four months. Still waiting.

Posted by: Mrs.CP Sep 14 2015, 08:24 AM

Did you want to add a link or a picture of the claim Gold Hill Miner, we would love to see.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Sep 14 2015, 10:37 AM

This is the shaft. Corner 1 original location is next to trees and road upper left. Now is #4. Corner #4 is supposed to be 200 plus feet to the upper right. The stone marker has been removed.

Posted by: Gene Kooper Sep 15 2015, 02:38 PM

Given the information that you have provided in this thread, I was able to figure out the claim name and mineral survey number for the claim with the shaft. Since you already have issues with a trespasser, I won't discuss them here. Your plat is available on the GLO Records web site and a color scan can be downloaded at no charge. I also have a copy of the field notes. If you do not have the original location certificate, the field notes include a certified copy of the amended location certificate, which lists the Boulder County Book and Page for the 1895 original location certificate. There is a nominal fee for the Boulder County Clerk and Recorder's office to make the copy.

I would be happy to assist you with additional research to correct the problem. One option to "fix" your problem is to request the BLM look at the merits of conducting a corrective dependent resurvey of their 2003 dependent resurvey. There are known issues with mineral surveys done at the time your survey was conducted. In 2003, the BLM was not aware of these issues. They are aware of them now.

One last thing....From reading your posts you have hired a surveyor for this project. It is not my intent for you to pay two surveyors. Any assistance I may provide you and/or your surveyor will be as a professional courtesy.

Please feel free to contact me at (303) 989-5424 or cekooper@gmail.com. Any provided information will be held in strict confidence.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Sep 16 2015, 08:28 AM

QUOTE (Gene Kooper @ Sep 15 2015, 03:38 PM) *
Given the information that you have provided in this thread, I was able to figure out the claim name and mineral survey number for the claim with the shaft. Since you already have issues with a trespasser, I won't discuss them here. Your plat is available on the GLO Records web site and a color scan can be downloaded at no charge. I also have a copy of the field notes. If you do not have the original location certificate, the field notes include a certified copy of the amended location certificate, which lists the Boulder County Book and Page for the 1895 original location certificate. There is a nominal fee for the Boulder County Clerk and Recorder's office to make the copy.

I would be happy to assist you with additional research to correct the problem. One option to "fix" your problem is to request the BLM look at the merits of conducting a corrective dependent resurvey of their 2003 dependent resurvey. There are known issues with mineral surveys done at the time your survey was conducted. In 2003, the BLM was not aware of these issues. They are aware of them now.

One last thing....From reading your posts you have hired a surveyor for this project. It is not my intent for you to pay two surveyors. Any assistance I may provide you and/or your surveyor will be as a professional courtesy.

Please feel free to contact me at (303) 989-5424 or cekooper@gmail.com. Any provided information will be held in strict confidence.


Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Sep 16 2015, 08:34 AM

Thank you! I will call in the next few days. I have everything. Plats, exact measurements and more ariels. I have physically learned to read the monuments and have measure a whole mountainside. Almost every claim has been pinned 75-100' feet down the mountain. We have proof of the trespasser bulldozing markers. That will be BLM's problem. I also have a center line pin survey for the road ass.

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Sep 28 2015, 09:38 PM

I now realize my claim jumper has adjusted one corner of his claim 75' to the claim centerline monument. Claiming a lost corner. After reviewing the BLM Meets and Bounds/ Cadastral Survey in question at least 100 times, I counted all the recorded no evidence of corner monuments, intersecting lines not monumented, loose corners, moved corners and no mark mining claim corners. This survey included 60 mining claims. 1 CORNER HAD NO MARK, 4 WERE FOUND WITHIN 10', 55 WERE LOOSE OR BROKEN IN PIECES, 40 CORNERS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY MONUMENT AND 202 CLAIM LINE INTERSECTIONS NOT MONUMENTED.
On one of my parcels comprised of parts of three mining claims, I have located all my original corner monuments and intersecting line monuments. 2 corners and 14 intersecting lines. Every original stone was broken but the bases still in tact in the ground. Since I am followed, most have been covered by down trees or have sustained further damage. No problem anymore. I do have them on film with GPS coordinates.
On a good note, I traversed the mountain with a surveyor recently that finally sees, that BLM pinned a claim associated with my property 150' in the wrong direction. With no shaft, no tunnels at all on it. i thought he was going to get sick over it. I believe someone trying to avoid buying his trespass issues caused BLM to make this mistake. I am expecting a plat matching the original location certificate, mineral survey and patten package from Washington. Another plat showing BLM's new location.
This week I learned older bearing trees that have multiple #s are for intersections. I also believe there can be #s along watermarks on disturbed monuments that are lying on the ground.

Posted by: fenixsmom Sep 29 2015, 05:28 PM

I'm glad to hear you're getting it all figured out. Keep us posted!

Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Nov 21 2016, 01:14 PM

I want to extend a huge thank you to Gene Kooper! Your guidance has been invaluable. i did send a personal message, please let me know if you did not get it. Also please feel free to post it.

I have without a doubt proved there has been a major mistake in my section, township & community with a cadastral survey. The BLM and whatever subcontractors worked on this survey, were duped. Someone definitely tampered with the survey process as it was happening. They rotated their claim 75' leaving control points in tact at the other end of their claim

During my 5 years of trying to correct this issue, I found it very difficult to explain to my surveyors that I needed an updated Location Certificate and plat, for BLM to see, they pinned a mining claim in the wrong place. I found they were always looking at obliterated monuments, tunnels and shafts at the correct former location. With Gene Kooper's advise that a certain claim was key, I crawled on my hands and knees around the shafts and tunnels of the new BLM position of the claim in question. I was able to find the original markers, tunnels and cabin sites that belonged to 3-4 other claims. I am able to show the claim I own part of, now overlaps different claims then it should. Connecting plats and Gene's key advise is what did it. By requesting a location verification, I assumed my surveyors would plat every every shaft, tunnel, gulch & corner at the new location. I had to go find it all myself. No more stalling. Now I have had to put 24hr surveillance at the site, because almost every monument I have recovered for 5 years, was covered by down trees or intentionally obliterated.

I believe there are many conflicts of interest with the county, surveyors, trail building plans, acquisitions & a failure of follow-up on this cadastral survey by BLM. I would like to know if there were subcontractors other than BLM that set the new monuments and who was supposed to follow up on the accuracy of placement.

For anyone out there dealing with a claim jumper; remember a claim jumper can not move the shafts and tunnels. They are recorded and easy to find if you know what you are looking for. Even unpatented claims in the area are full of information.

It was recorded in this BLM cadastral survey, 60 claim corners not monumented, 202 claim intersections not monumented and then how they were recreated. If the claim jumpers claim is restored to its accurate position, almost all 60 claim corner and intersection monuments will be found. Some are obliterated and some have trees over them.

Hopefully I will finally have my plat in hand shortly, get reimbursed for 5 years of hard work, get all my claims back in place and get my driveway back! I am hopeful for a peaceful resolution, without a lengthy court battle.

Thank You Gene Kooper,
Gold Hill Miner


Posted by: Gold Hill Miner Nov 30 2016, 12:00 PM

[quote name='Gold Hill Miner' date='Nov 21 2016, 12:14 PM' post='44643']
I want to extend a huge thank you to Gene Kooper! Your guidance has been invaluable. i did send a personal message, please let me know if you did not get it. Also please feel free to post it.

I have without a doubt proved there has been a major mistake in my section, township & community with a cadastral survey. The BLM and whatever subcontractors worked on this survey, were duped. Someone definitely tampered with the survey process as it was happening. They rotated their claim 75' leaving control points in tact at the other end of their claim

During my 5 years of trying to correct this issue, I found it very difficult to explain to my surveyors that I needed an updated Location Certificate and plat, for BLM to see, they pinned a mining claim in the wrong place. I found they were always looking at obliterated monuments, tunnels and shafts at the correct former location. With Gene Kooper's advise that a certain claim was key, I crawled on my hands and knees around the shafts and tunnels of the new BLM position of the claim in question. I was able to find the original markers, tunnels and cabin sites that belonged to 3-4 other claims. I am able to show the claim I own part of, now overlaps different claims then it should. Connecting plats and Gene's key advise is what did it. By requesting a location verification, I assumed my surveyors would plat every every shaft, tunnel, gulch & corner at the new location. I had to go find it all myself. No more stalling. Now I have had to put 24hr surveillance at the site, because almost every monument I have recovered for 5 years, was covered by down trees or intentionally obliterated.

I believe there are many conflicts of interest with the county, surveyors, trail building plans, acquisitions & a failure of follow-up on this cadastral survey by BLM. I would like to know if there were subcontractors other than BLM that set the new monuments and who was supposed to follow up on the accuracy of placement.

For anyone out there dealing with a claim jumper; remember a claim jumper can not move the shafts and tunnels. They are recorded and easy to find if you know what you are looking for. Even unpatented claims in the area are full of information.

It was recorded in this BLM cadastral survey, 60 claim corners not monumented, 202 claim intersections not monumented and then how they were recreated. If the claim jumpers claim is restored to its accurate position, almost all 60 claim corner and intersection monuments will be found. Some are obliterated and some have trees over them.

Hopefully I will finally have my plat in hand shortly, get reimbursed for 5 years of hard work, get all my claims back in place and get my driveway back! I am hopeful for a peaceful resolution, without a lengthy court battle.

Thank You Gene Kooper,
Gold Hill Miner
[/quote



How long should it take a surveyor to plat one 1500'x150' claim, showing the 4 corners, tunnels, shafts and monuments inside?

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