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Montezuma's Treasure Vault?, Stone Ruins Discovered While Prospecting
fenixsmom
post Jan 25 2015, 11:48 AM
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Of course, heed warning to Rhodo! If you find anything significant, be very careful and learn those lass!
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ASTROBLEME
post Jan 25 2015, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (RhodoRose @ Jan 25 2015, 08:00 AM) *
'Morning!

My interest in archeology used to be (!) far greater than my interest in prospecting, and CP members are no dummies; but let me state the obvious, for the record: be very, very careful not to tamper with sites which are obviously man-made. Antiquities Act laws are as harsh and unforgiving as prospecting laws, and the federal gov't is really nasty about prosecuting anyone messing with what they deem an important site, before or after someone's touched it.

That said - Cool finds!

RhodoRose


RhodoRose,

Thanks for stating the obvious for forum visitors who might have intentions other than just learning about this discovery and sharing of ideas as to who built the structures and for what purpose were they created. My research efforts in this matter are non-destructive and non-disturbing. The site remains intact and unaltered. No laws, legal or moral are being broken by this effort.

My main concern about putting this information into this public forum is to keep the location safe from vandals while experts are making their observations. That is why the photos don't show horizons or other identifying views that could reveal the ruins location. Also, all digital Lat/Lon data is stripped from the photo files before they leave my desk. So I am confident that the location will remain secure for now.

If there are experts that come across this post and want to assist with the research, please get in touch with me.

ASTROBLEME


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fenixsmom
post Jan 25 2015, 02:56 PM
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Sorry for trying to help. Maybe you should contact a museum insted of a public forum.
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swizz
post Jan 25 2015, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (fenixsmom @ Jan 25 2015, 01:56 PM) *
Maybe you should contact a museum instead of a public forum.

What? huh.gif
I beg to differ.... Johnny is a pro. I'm loving the thread, incredibly interesting and is of much historic value for nerds like me. Please keep up the pics! char098.gif


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RhodoRose
post Jan 25 2015, 04:09 PM
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Totally understand, Astro, Thank-you for clarifying what you're doing for the general public. Indeed, if this were in the protected member area, I probably wouldn't have bothered to say anything.

Regarding fenixmom's comment about contacting a museum, it's certainly a valid suggestion. I don't know what the laws are regarding man-made structures; but, for instance, if you find a vertebrae fossil, you are required to contact the state paleontologist regardless of whether or not you are considered an expert in the field.

Lastly, for members of the general public who come across this thread: there are many laws regarding prospecting, archeology, and paleontology, and if you peruse this forum you will see a LOT of warnings, cautions, and just plain words of wisdom, as well as a goodly amount of information regarding research and prep work prior to going out in the field.

Like I said before - Cool Finds, I'm envious!

Cheers! cheers.gif

RhodoRose

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ASTROBLEME
post Jan 25 2015, 06:22 PM
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Here is a photo of the top of the "tower" structure. To me, the stones are set such that it is built into or right through the loose material on the slope rather than just following a course on the surface of the slope. The top is solid, with stones set in mortar, not just filled by loose debris from uphill. It doesn't take too much imagination to assume the structure could be covering a tunnel entrance.

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"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
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RhodoRose
post Jan 25 2015, 10:21 PM
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I agree - it does look like the entrance to a tunnel. But my question would be, if someone were trying to hide a tunnel entrance (with valuable things inside), wouldn't a pile of rocks be a lot less obvious than a constructed wall? But perhaps the wall wasn't built to hide what was underneath, merely to protect it from the elements.

I'll look back through my Colorado history books and references for historical ideas. The only thing apparent to me from first glance is that the stones do not have the narrow "ledge stone" appearance seen in Chaco culture. A rough idea of what area of the state this is located would narrow the number of theories considerably, if you care to send me any clues in a PM. Nothing too specific, perhaps just a couple of county names.

Rhodo
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Coalbunny
post Jan 26 2015, 01:13 AM
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Jessie, Aztec & Mayans were in Mexico & South America. The Spanish, French & Portuguese were before the Mexicans as the Mexicans are a mix of either of the three counties and the indians in Mexico.

Could be other indian cultures, though the selection of those that worked with such tools and structures is limited.

My vote is for the Si'teca.


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fenixsmom
post Jan 26 2015, 09:24 AM
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Thanks Coalbunny! I always thought Colorado meant colorful state in Spanish. I was confused. Thank you very much for the correction!

Edit: fact checked myself. Colorado is a Spanish adjective that means “red.” The early Spanish explorers in the Rocky Mountain region named a river they found the Rio Colorado for the reddish silt that the water carried down from the mountains

No more posting pre-coffee for me! Lol.
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fenixsmom
post Jan 26 2015, 09:42 AM
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I had a thought yesterday. (watch out!) Is there any ancient rivers nearby or a place for crops? Without either, life would be very hard to sustain unless the culture was just hunter/gatherers.
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Woody
post Jan 26 2015, 11:14 AM
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Cool Thread! Possibilities abound. Wish I would have been watching this all along.

In my travels I’ve come a crossed a few of these Semi-circular stone walls. Almost all of those were used in shoring up steep drainages that were along some ol’ forgotten trail or path. You seem to have already covered this possibility and I see by the pictures that the top is fairly round and not horizontal or built flat into the hill side. So I’ll try to add a few different angles. Oddly enough, this is not the first time I have also seen one with an adjacent structure.

By chance have you tried to look at this site on google maps, “or similar”? My thoughts here are that with the dry arroyo and hills being so steep maybe all traces of the trail in the immediate area have been eroded away but with an expanded view you might be able to connect the dots so to speak. On a large scale you might be able to etch out where this site was an important midway point to a further destination. Kind of like a stagecoach stop, but obviously not.

As for the rocks by the Drainage Hole I suggest they appear to be a sort of half-circle cap stone. A few are missing and appear to have dropped down over time. This however would suggest being more of a decorative piece rather than something needed for functionality. “I know all my thoughts here are strictly flights of fancy and embellished, but here goes another one.” That flat stone at the end of the drainage hole looks to me to be usable for Catch Basin. And if that is the case the mystery of the Dome Structure could be solved.

A lot of natural seeps and springs today have a man-made covering or have been altered in some way to make their use more convenient to us. Most of them just have a pipe pounded into the wall and dump into a trough of some sort but a few have an earth covering that helps draw out the water. A simple explanation; Imagine if this was a support wall, the hole in the center would be necessary for drainage. Thoughts of control would need to be implemented into the design for Runoff. Trapped water behind a structure like that might quickly bring it down from just the mechanical weathering of freezing and thawing alone. One of the “by-products” of this type of design was the discovery that the drainage hole continued to weep long after the immediate runoff or storm had passed. That silt layer at the base of the large sandstone outcropping could easily have produced a small natural drainage years ago. Maybe someone built this structure in an attempt to channel a wide seep into a usable one.

The structure to the far right of the three is an Inny, not an Outty. Meaning who ever built this first removed a large volume of earth and then built the foundation into the hill. Most Native Americans were not to keen on building Innies. They normally improved upon already existing natural structures like building a wall around a hollow depression, resulting in an outty.

Here is a possible way to help date the site and plays into your well-house of expertise. I suggest you test the chemical composition of the mortar. Native Americans made this mortar differently than did European settlers. Europeans favored cement more so than mortar. Everyone knows that one of the ingredients of early cement was Ashes. One of the pics clearly show what looks to be ashes in the mix. Other ingredients used might help to establish a date, just like an index fossil.

Sorry so long. Hope you someday solve the mystery, Woody.


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Crusty
post Jan 26 2015, 12:01 PM
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WOODY! Good to hear from you; hope all is well with you!

Interesting addition to the discussion. Look forward to hearing more as y'all look in to it further!




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ASTROBLEME
post Jan 26 2015, 07:42 PM
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Another photo of the tower...this shows the rounded shape very well.

Attached Image




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"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
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Coalbunny
post Jan 26 2015, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (fenixsmom @ Jan 26 2015, 08:24 AM) *
Thanks Coalbunny! I always thought Colorado meant colorful state in Spanish. I was confused. Thank you very much for the correction!

Edit: fact checked myself. Colorado is a Spanish adjective that means “red.” The early Spanish explorers in the Rocky Mountain region named a river they found the Rio Colorado for the reddish silt that the water carried down from the mountains

No more posting pre-coffee for me! Lol.

It does, more like "colored red", IIRC. But then mi habla poquito espainol.
Taaaaaco....
Burrrrreto....
JOSE CUERVO! Ei Yi Yi! smiley-laughing021.gif

I am with woody though. I think that's an Aztec Outty. 'Cause what you don't find's liable to be the ph34r.gif !


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ASTROBLEME
post Feb 9 2015, 11:47 PM
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Everyone,

I’ve observed a line of man-made holes in the fault slickenside near the “Tower” at the stone ruins site. These unique features appear to be Cupules, frequently referred to as the earliest form of rock art. Numerous examples have been found on every continent except Antarctica. Cupules were produced during all three eras of the Stone Age - Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic - as well as in historical times. The holes appear to be very old, having visible surface erosion and lichen growing in the pit.


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"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
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