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Recovery of fine gold, how to not lose all the dust in the pan
Johnny
post Oct 25 2003, 09:37 AM
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Howdy All,
I managed to find some really nice pieces of ore but when crushed it releases some really fine dust. It shows up nice in the pan but danged if I can figure out how to seperate it from the "left overs". blink.gif
My poor talent at panning is prolly the root of the problem however I know that there are methods for recovering this shiney stuff! ;)
I've heard of float gold and I think this is some of what I see in the pan... what's a guy to do? unsure.gif
Happy Trails,
Johnny
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cowboy444
post Oct 25 2003, 01:23 PM
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If the gold is floating, add a drop of Dawn dishwashing soap. This will break the tension and allow the gold to drop to the bottom.
Now use a snuffer bottle to suck it up.

If you still have trouble getting your gold, add a little mercury to your pan and allow it to come in contact with your gold. Mercury will absorb the gold. You will have to burn off the mercury to recover the gold. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS !! :o

Learn the proper way to work with mercury before burning it off. There are many forums with discussions about mercury. Tom's forum probably has the best information.

Hope this helps.

cowboy444
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Johnny
post Oct 25 2003, 04:27 PM
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Howdy,
Thank's for the tip Cowboy444!!! I'll give it a try and let you know... Mercury is hard to come by these days... I'll have to find a couple of thermomitors and get into them I suppose. Definately a good thing to do on a day with a high wind. :o

I read about an expedition by some frenchmen in about 1812. They found gold in southern Colorado and were smelting it. Several of them died... mostly the ones in tents downwind from the smelter. They were the source of the tale of the "Lost Spanish Gold" actually there were 200 of them starting out. Napoleon sent them to see if there was any reason he shouldn't sell Jefferson the Lousiana purchase. They got greedy and stayed too long... The spanish got a few, the indians got a few and the weather got a few and a few died from the mercury. Eventually only 2 got out but they hid the gold from 2 years of mining. Thus the legend of Treasure mountain was born.
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CP
post Oct 26 2003, 10:27 AM
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Welcome to the forum cowboy444, that soap trick works well for me too, but I leave the merc stuff to the guys with the proper facilities. ;)
Pretty lucky to have a friend that is teaching me, and I just watch and learn. unsure.gif
If you want some more info on the chemicals, check out
Basement chemistry for the prospector. This looked like a really informative site.
Sounds like you found some nice rocks Johnny!


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Johnny
post Nov 3 2003, 05:31 PM
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Howdy All,
How much does a "Troy Ounce" weigh? Is it bigger or smaller than a regular old ounce? How about grams and grains... do I need to find my reloading scale? This prospecting stuff has become quite an education! blink.gif

Headed up to Sedona and the mining towns of Jerome and Crown King last weekend... pretty but rugged country up there in Northern and Central AZ! The wind was blowing flag poppin fast and the clouds were bumpy, the dust was blowing and the smoke from the fires in California made it kinda tough to get enthused. mad.gif

Find the story of the little mining town of Stanton, AZ on the Forum at www.Travelsos.net... :P
Happy Trails,
Johnny
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ME CO
post Nov 3 2003, 11:40 PM
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find your reloading scale- there's 480 grain in a troy oz. Mark


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Denise
post Nov 7 2003, 04:34 PM
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Johnny,
A troy oz. is large.
Troy oz.= 31.1 grams / 20 penny weight
Regular oz.= 28 grams

I hope this helps ;)


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gold_tutor
post Nov 29 2003, 09:08 AM
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Hello, Johnny, and others

One doesn't have to leave this site for other forums to get answers to mercury questions or tips on fine gold recovery<grin>

Let's tackle your question regarding fine gold recovery with or without mercury first, okay, Johnny?

There are several methods to recovering fine gold.

Snuffleupagussing is just one...
GOD BLESS THOSE SNUFFER BOTTLES and the dude who invented 'em, that's what I say!<grin>

Amalgamation is 'nuther one, and mentioned here. I'll go into more depth if you like.

A third way is digestion and precipitation.

A fourth way is spiral panning.

A fifth way is to build yourself a small, hand-cranked conveyor with rubber belt, and separate the gangue from the gold dust

A sixth way is magnetic separation, either by hand or by machine. I have plans for an expensive machine which I use...it's especially helpful in separating out the blacksands which have platinum attached, so all stuff in the bottom is NOT gold, okay?<grin>

A seventh way is to cupellate, then digest, then precipitate, then pour.

There are some errors in public thinking and discussions and other forums about the ways and hows to do any of the above, so I suspect there will be disagreement here as well.

Some questions I'll be able to answer "for free" as I haven't formally codified those thots, aka "written those up for publication, and thus have prior arrangements with my publisher to NOT disseminate her published information for free".

If I can share, I will. If I can't I'll tell you I can't, and then I'll need you to respect that response, okay?

I'll go make another post now, about amalgamation aka use of mercury that has been talked about here.

Stay tuned.
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gold_tutor
post Nov 29 2003, 09:58 AM
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Here's what mercury
and fine gold amalgamation
SHOULD look like when
Hg's a workin' fer ya!
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gold_tutor
post Nov 29 2003, 10:11 AM
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One threader has stated that Mercury absorbs gold, and for all practical purposes that's close 'nuff as in horseshoes.

However, to think amalgamation in the terms of a cake recipe might be more accurate.

Just because one combines flour with sugar in a bowl does NOT mean flour has absorbed the sugar

Ditto with Mercury.

Mercury is a metal
Gold is a metal

Absorbed style metals which DO become molecular level "absorbed" are called alloys., i.e., copper and gold or nickel and iron, etc.

An Amalgam is NOT an alloy! Not at all.

I submit it is more proper to think of mercury having an AFFINITY for gold, much as a magnet has an affinity for iron particles, some nickel particles and some cobalt particles.

The reason why this distinction is important is the following:

when it comes to separating flour from sugar, one has to use a process suitable to re-classifying into its specific classes the two organic substances' particles, flour and sugar.

When it comes to amalgamating gold and mercury, there are methods for separating them back into THEIR SEPARATE components, since they are NOT "absorbed, aka alloyed."

That is where the interesting part of working with amalgam comes in. I'll talk about retorts next.

Oh, and Johnny,
it's not that hard to get ahold of mercury.

It is still legal to buy and sell mercury in the USA, and to ship it by ordinary means as long as it is under certain weights. A buddy of mine, email---> claudminer@aol.com sells it to all comers as long as you state to him when you ask him for prices that you are over the age of 21 and understand there are safety precautions (ventilation, safety glasses, etc.) as a purchaser.

A little goes a long ways, so you don't need to buy much.

I suggest you learn from him to re-use it over and over again, instead of vaporizing it in a "retort" as another has suggested. He has a cool Mercury TipSheet series (no, they aren't free either, sorry) website--> Claud-the-miner on how to use and reuse mercury safely in a small prospectors' or miners' operation.

I'll post about why I don't use a retort in my next post.
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Johnny
post Nov 29 2003, 12:08 PM
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Howdy Gold_Tutor!
Thanks for the info :D Really glad you have jumped into the forum here.. I know i'm not alone in my ignorance.
Any how "much obliged sir"! :)
Happy Trails
Johnny
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gold_tutor
post Nov 29 2003, 12:53 PM
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Here's just one result of keyword searching google:
One Google Search result: keyword: "mercury+retort" There one will find two "homemade retorts" illustrated and an explanation of both.

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:Wa8jI...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
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ME CO
post Nov 29 2003, 06:28 PM
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Kool Retort Megan. Wish the pics were a little bigger but I got the jest of it, didn't look like any vent or any way of escape- wonder how it handles the heat? Thanks for sharing, Mark


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gold_tutor
post Nov 30 2003, 11:34 PM
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ME CO: Sorry the enlarged combo image is a little grainy below, but enlarging small .jpgs often does that. I added the labels to help explain the photos. You spoke of not seeing where the smaller view showed "vented." I think enlarging will help.

Venting aka off-gassing IS the problem in a nutshell that I have with all retorts.

As we were all taught in school, all matter exists as solids, liquids, or gasses.

To go back and pick up my earlier "cake-mix combo" allegory regarding how to physically separate Hg (mercury) from Au (gold), retorting takes advantage of the different physical properties addition or removal of heat from the two metals employs.

In the case of our "cake mix" analogy, the physical VISUAL characteristics of flour and sugar particles were all that were required in order to physically separate those to "unalloyed organic particles." IN the case of amalgam, separating the dissimilar particles using visual differences isn't so easy. Go back and review the string of amalgam in my earlier post...the gold isn't even visible as yellow particles anymore. EVERY particle is completely covered with slimy, liquid state Hg.

So,
because Hg turns to a gaseous state in the 72-ish Degree Farenheit temp range-- yes basically room temperature--it takes VERY LITTLE heat to turn the whole of the Hg liquid into a total gas and "off-gas" it, leaving behind the now separated and "cleaned up" gold particles in their coveted glory.

Checking the boiling point of the two metals, Hg and Au, one sees why this temp differential is a handy physically property variance, and so usable to miners.

In the old days, a shovel would be left in the coals of the campfire, with amalgamated gold in it. In the morning, the mercury would be vaporized and the
gold removed and tucked safely into the pouch. Of course, one had to sleep up wind and with one eye open all night long to make sure the other campfire mateys were asleep instead of messing with your shovel ph34r.gif

Also, gassified mercury isn't visible to the visiting F/S or BLM ranger when one uses the shovel method. However, as our Kalamath River friend, Dave McCracken of the Old 49ers club in No. California learned, a miner's life can be made a living hell from just one tiny shiny globuble visible if F/S or BLM wishes to get nasty with you. And there is no way to prove, or at least Dave wasn't permitted to prove the high probability the mercury he was charged with illegally possessing was native leached cinnebar sourced mercury. It is NOT above the planted lynx hair F/S types to taint the evidence, aka plant mercury either, so be careful out there.

AND THEN there is the whole state by state legality issue. I've been told at GPAA gold shows where I've been an exhibitor that the great state of Wisconsin has totally outlawed even the possession of Hg by miners within their state. Can't buy it, can't sell it, can't possess it.

Back to shovel off-gassing...
Nowadays, shovel off-gassing is frowned on for obvious reasons; which discourages the discharge of the gasified Hg into the atmosphere. Also, because Hg off-gasses at such a low "room temp," many believe storing Hg--covered by water--prevents all gasification. That is simply NOT borne out by science, but it is still a commonly held belief. Don't get me wrong--Water helps to a limited extent.

I personally have handled formerly cleaned mercury that is over 15 years old. It was securely lidded. It even had a small layer of water on top of the Hg.

BUT, on top of the water atop the mercury, were DRIED mercury particles, which are extremely dangerous to disturb and breathe. So, be careful!!

As I promised earlier, tho'...
MY primary difficulty with supporting use of a retort is this: gasified Hg is breathable Hg, and that is deadly, as in used to be deadly in the gold rush days and is still deadly to this new millenium day.

The feature on all retorts, aka the "part" that supposedly prevents gasified Hg from escaping is the close tolerance of screwed metal base to screwed metal cap of the heated reservoir that contains the amalgam. Most retorts I've seen are VERY poorly machined and "close tolerance" is simply an advertising gimmick.

The close tolerance of a tightly screwed shut retort resevoir is supposedly enhanced by a employing a gasket of some type between threaded screw cap female part, and the threaded male resevoir part. It is my observation that subjecting that gasket to heated metal expansion and the dissimilar expansion properties of the gasket material leads to escaping deadly fumes, which can still pose a real off-gassing problem with deadly consequences to"man and beast!"

I also submit further, that those who make and sell retorts seldom- IF EVER- instruct the purchaser in what type of replacement gasket material is suitable, where to find it and how an "ordinary Joe/Suzy Miner" is supposed to cut said gasket material even IF it was offered in the prospector outfitters' stores. Most hobbyists are loathe to physically handle Hg, let alone remove and handle a busted gasket between reservoir and cap!

I've seen many a miner wrap his metal resevoir "seam between cap and reservoir" in bandanas, wetted rags, or just about anything else they can grab in an effort to slow this off gassing under heat. I remain unconvinced of the efficiency or safety of ANY retort method.

I've seen a lot of guys NOT make an effort to condense aka drop out the gasified Hg into an awaiting container below the cooling tube, but just let the gasified Hg escape into the air and think nothing of it or make jokes about it.

I personally practice what is called "substitute reaction" Hg/Au amalgam separation and reclaimation of my gold values claudminer@aol.com taught me years ago by Claud, so I am a loyal user of that method. He didn't invent anything new, he just taught me how to do it differently and safely, and I like it well enough to continue, that's all.

That completes my efforts to describe why I don't like retorts, but why retorts are used.
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gold_tutor
post Dec 3 2003, 11:22 PM
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In the "vein" of recovery of fine gold, a nifty build it yourself if ya'wanna lightweight sluice for catching those fines showed up on another forum in the last few days.

I'll post the pictures of it as it was presented, and then I'll post my idea of a modification.

This separation method takes into account the physical property of differential specific gravity of particles being sorted in this manner.
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