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Colorado Prospector - Gem and mineral prospecting and mining forums _ Prospecting and Mining Laws, Regulations etc. _ BUYER BEWARE! ILLEGAL REC GUIDE SERVICES

Posted by: swizz Jun 14 2012, 08:36 AM

There is at least one (possibly more) individuals/vendors offering "recreational" guided Gold prospecting trips in the Colorado front range. These services are advertised on Craigslist, Facebook, and often have elaborate websites.
The daily pay-to-play outings are advertised to be on land that is owned by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS which are PRIVATELY OWNED by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS. The privilege of recreational panning and sluicing activities is already offered to the public at no charge in these areas by CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS.... they are designated "recreational" areas put in place by you the voter/taxpayer. Why would you PAY someone any fee or sum of money to hold your hand there? Are you and your family that clueless? If you are... this is the demographic the illegal operations are targeting. You have already paid for the privilege to use these lands. The locations are offered to the public by the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS for your public use... you have already paid taxes and/or voted for these privileges and can enjoy them at no charge. You gain no further privileges by paying someone (especially if they are operating illegally) to take you there... where everyone and their sister is already panning for FREE, lol. Your wallet just gets lighter while you listen to some guy's bs prospecting "tricks" theories and techniques. Do you really want to pay some greedy prospector for "learning" their panning techniques, their "sure thing" and "secret" spots on your recreational land (while others are there prospecting and learning for free), and "experience" their sales pitch and "learning" for a fee?
That's fine if you do.... just make sure they are operating legally. The good guys share these tips, techniques, locations, and honest experiences with others for free (Hank and others know I practice what I preach). People mining miners will try to charge you. There are no "tricks" or fees, this is reality. Fortunately there are sites like CP where this information, "learning", "techniques", advice, and "experiences" along with a vast archive of resources are freely shared here and LEGALLY without a fee. CP isn't the end-all resource but it is damn good one... I know of none better. Prospecting, panning , and sluicing on recreational designated lands is not rocket science and does not require a fee to a private company to help you do it. You can learn theory, panning technique, and equipment processes here, at other free forums, and on youtube for Christ's sake. It's that easy. There are no super-secret magic panning and sluicing "tricks" to learn... which these shoddy outfits often advertise. These "tricks" are available everywhere online. The only "trick" that occurs is when your money magically disappears.

Need to learn where to dig and swirl a pan? Perhaps you'd like to explore something outside of the city rec areas and enjoy your RIGHTS instead of dictated 'recreational' privileges? Or... stay within the recreational public use areas which are close to you and enjoy them (for free!) at your leisure? Rec privileges are nice (and most often free to the public). But certainly not nice enough to pay additional fees to an illegal vendor, lark, or scam artist to hold your hand while emptying your wallet and slipping you a bag lunch.
Enjoy your recreational panning privileges for free. happy088.gif True exploration, prospecting, and especially discovery is by far more rewarding than giving your hard earned money to some guy who wants to make you lunch and take you to a public rec area to swirl a pan and offer you secret "tricks". smiley-laughing021.gif

BEWARE:
The CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS legally require a permit and/or permissions for individuals and/or vendors to charge money for services rendered on their properties. ASK FOR THIS DOCUMENTATION BEFORE YOU PART WITH YOUR MONEY. A legally operating vendor or individual offering guided services, products, or services rendered on CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS owned lands MUST obtain and possess these permissions. They must present this documentation upon request.
If they fail to present it and give you a flowery story about why they are not required to present this, PURE BS... run away as fast as you can. In fact, run to the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS as fast as you can to make sure it's legal for the vendor/individual to take your money and offer a prospecting guide service on their rec designated lands.... or others will unknowingly continue to fuel their illegal operation(s).

Sometimes these larks will state things like "we don't charge you for the location" and act like it's a legal disclaimer to hide behind. Fact is... they are charging for services ON these locations without permissions to conduct a legal business there. That is a land usage violation and punishable.
If you do not check the legality of the vendor/individual.... illegal operations like this WILL tarnish recreational prospecting and jeopardize the sanctity and privileges of ALL recreational users who prospect on these lands. More 'prospecting guide services' and scam artists will see the opportunity and set up shop to take advantage as well. Abusing the recreational system on this level is appalling on many levels and will certainly be the ultimate ruin of recreational panning and sluicing as we know it. These vendors typically preach that they are trying to preserve rec prospecting when they are actually exploiting it monetarily... quite the scam. I don't want to see rec panning and sluicing exploited like this, especially illegally, I would like the heritage of Colorado recreational panning and sluicing privileges to remain in tact and in good faith with the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS. They did not open these areas so vendors could set up shop and charge people money for profit. This amounts to a blatant exploitation of what the CITY, COUNTY, and PARKS, have given us recreationally. The abuse of our recreational privileges by greedy individuals and vendors who charge money on those lands could very well ruin it for recreational panning and sluicing in our state. The state does not tolerate illegal activities which exploit recreational privileges on the recreational designated lands. They can take rec privileges away if the abuses of the system get out of hand... hell they can do it on a whim. Illegal outfits give them plenty of justification to close rec areas open to prospecting. They weren't opened for folks to run a mining business on... the rec areas are there for the public users, not illegal business operators. Please don't support individuals or vendors who practice on rec lands illegally, it could also bite YOU in the ass, please be careful.

KNOW THIS:
It is ILLEGAL to offer and charge people for services or to sell or advertise retail or wholesale items and products on these lands for profit without documented permissions. ASK to see these permissions and/or verify them.
It is ILLEGAL to guide persons and children without proper business liability insurance coverage. As a customer you have every right to ask.... especially if you are including children in your outing, as there are legal liability issues involving potential injuries, etc. ASK for a Certification of Limited Liability Insurance in addition to the required permits to run this type of operation. Do not sign you or your children's injury liability and compensatory rights away to an unscrupulous illegal vendor or individual who does not have adequate business insurance coverage and documented permissions from CITY, COUNTY, or PARK rec areas which you can view and print... if that is where they are taking you!!


Please do not buy into these scams, individuals, or snazzy websites trying to sell this illegal service. Make sure they are operating LEGALLY regardless of their sales pitch, elaborate advertising, and possible claims to "fighting for your recreational privileges" (they often claim that these privileges are "rights")... you already possess the privilege and these outfits are jeopardizing it right in front of you... and you're helping finance the demise of recreational panning/sluicing if you use their illegal services. The websites will typically paint a pretty picture stating that they are "working hard to make recreational prospecting a RIGHT" or state that they are "working hard to create more recreational areas for you". This is the most laughable and pathetic part of the ripoff and it is a common pitch for this scam.
They want more free public recreational areas available to quietly operate their illegal businesses on.... get it?. Heck, maybe they can recommend and sell you some of their equipment while you're there, right? Their motives are clear to me and many others. MONEY. Report them immediately if they do not present you with their legal documentation mentioned above. Please do your part. This miner-mining-miners crap is getting old, always a new scam like this... don't buy into it. Report it.
Call the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS prior to shelling out money to someone offering 'services' on your recreationally designated parks, open spaces, and city owned lands. Ask if they know of the individual or vendor who is charging money for services rendered there.
Be sure that the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS knows that you are being charged money for services rendered on their recreational property for that day and it is legally permitted... and please make sure that whomever is charging you money, is compliant operating with the proper permissions, permitting, and liability coverage. If not... please contact the CITY, COUNTY, or PARKS agency where the vendor is operating. You may also contact the State and report this activity if it is unlawful: http://www.dora.state.co.us/

PLEASE
Know what you are getting into before opening your wallet, there are a lot of larks out there... and they want your cash in a bad way... for something you can easily do for FREE.
Need FREE help? We'll help ya... as will most at other clubs who truly value the REAL mining heritage and your FREE recreational privileges. Good guys don't charge ya for this... money grubbers, scammers, and larks do.

I am a Small Scale Miner (claim owner) who enjoys his RIGHTS... and I occasionally like to exercise my privileges to play on recreationally designated lands open to prospecting. I value ALL public lands and hate to see this type of illegal activity occurring on them for the benefit of money grubbin. It is an illegal abuse of the system, could result in loss of privileges, and definitely gives honest miners and prospectors a bad name.

Posted by: ASTROBLEME Jun 14 2012, 05:58 PM

Great post swizz!

Just like you, I take pride in helping those folks that are just starting prospecting or wanting to learn more about mining just as much as I can, especially with the help of ColoradoProspector.com. So let me take this opportunity to add on to your information by letting everyone know that there are also guided services that offer to bring paid customers to tour diamond and gemstone deposits.

Here's something to consider before you spend money for diamond and gemstone guided tours that enter any of my holdings. When those involved in taking/collecting any mineral specimens from my claims without permission are apprehended, I prosecute all those involved...both the guide(s) and the client(s). The government authorities take care of criminal charges while my lawyer takes care of the civil matters. I am not the only mining claim owner that refuses to be trampled upon by those that don't respect the law. We all band together when the need arises.

Thanks for saying what needed to be said swizz. Hopefully some will listen. order.gif

ASTROBLEME

Posted by: Woody Jun 14 2012, 10:19 PM

If this was a Face Book artical I would click the, "Like Button". Just saying! Woody.

Posted by: Mrs.CP Jun 15 2012, 01:31 PM

Excelent info for others to learn from.
Knowledge is power! info_grin.gif

Posted by: russau Jun 16 2012, 05:24 AM

QUOTE (Mrs.CP @ Jun 15 2012, 01:31 PM) *
Excelent info for others to learn from.
Knowledge is power! info_grin.gif

yes, knowledge is power, if they are smart enough to use it!

Posted by: Mrs.CP Jun 16 2012, 12:28 PM

Quoting Benjamin Franklin......

QUOTE

Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.

Posted by: swizz Apr 12 2013, 01:14 PM

Bump.
It's that time of year again... these guys will be crawling out of the woodwork shortly to illegally harvest the dollars of beginners.
Please don't fall for it, you're smarter than that. happy112.gif

Posted by: Caveman Apr 12 2013, 02:26 PM

Right on! This needs to get bumped out every year! happy088.gif

Posted by: ColoradoProspector Feb 25 2014, 07:57 AM

QUOTE (Caveman @ Apr 12 2013, 01:26 PM) *
Right on! This needs to get bumped out every year! happy088.gif


Correct Caveman, it does need to be bumped up again......bump! smiley-cool14.gif
Thanks everyone for your input. It is that time of year again and yep the scammers will be out in force again with the weather warm up.
For those of you who just wish to prospect, pan or sluice for a couple days or so on vacation. Just check out the free panning and sluicing areas found on this website, you'll have a great time and not need to hire or pay anyone to prospect unless you use a pay to dig site which is normally a small daily fee....not an illegal guide service charge.

Posted by: Mrs.CP Aug 6 2014, 06:50 AM

A shame, but I have still been hearing and seeing posts on the net of a tour guide taking people (even out of state visitors) to Cache Creek. This guy does NOT have a guide and outfitters license! I really hate seeing people being taken advantage of! mad.gif

If you see or hear of this going on, please report it to the proper agency. These people will ruin it for those trying to do things right if they are not stopped.

Place looks like hell from the pictures!!

Posted by: russau Aug 6 2014, 08:01 AM

deleted by myself.

Posted by: leonard Aug 6 2014, 08:10 AM

QUOTE (Mrs.CP @ Aug 6 2014, 05:50 AM) *
A shame, but I have still been hearing and seeing posts on the net of a tour guide taking people (even out of state visitors) to Cache Creek. This guy does NOT have a guide and outfitters license! I really hate seeing people being taken advantage of! mad.gif

If you see or hear of this going on, please report it to the proper agency. These people will ruin it for those trying to do things right if they are not stopped.

Place looks like hell from the pictures!!


First, it's not me.

If it's who I think it is, there are several that I've seen, he is well worth the money if you are from out of state. I don't personally have a problem with paying someone that knows more than I do to take their time to teach me. It's done all the time at institutions of higher learning. In fact I was paid to guide learning in the field of electronics for 27 years. The person in question, once again, if he is who I think, has far the most experience prospecting in his area of anyone that I know. He can put you on the gold because he has the experience digging there. He can show you gold in a sluice any time of the year.

Cache Creek is one of very few places on the Arkansas that is open to the public. It gets a lot of use but it wasn't pristine before the BLM opened it up. It had been worked hard and put away wet. I have a series of videos taken 8 years ago at Cache Creek. http://golddredgervideo.com/prospecting/cachecreek2006part2.wmv


Leonard

Posted by: Mrs.CP Aug 6 2014, 08:29 AM

No reason to do that Russ. With the proper questions, anyone can find out on their own if they have the proper permits or not. As far as I know, there is no one in Colorado properly license to do that type of tour on public land for prospecting.

Leonard, not sure if it's the same person or no. It wouldn't matter to me if they had " far the most experience prospecting in his area of anyone that I know". If they are operating illegally, then they obviously don't have all the knowledge needed to be out in the field....just my opinion but illegal is illegal no matter how knowledgeable or friendly they are. As you can see by our forum, people are taken out all the time by those willing to help just like Swizz said above. I feel like if they are charging for this, then they are taking advantage....not ok in my book!

Sounds like you have someone in mind though Leonard. With the proper questions, you can find out if that person is operating legally with the proper permits/license though.

Posted by: fenixsmom Aug 6 2014, 10:29 AM

Since we are throwing in our two cents here I would like to agree with both sides of the argument. As a wife of a goose hunting outfitter I agree with Leonard. If your good at what you do it is lucrative to teach others and get clients what they want. Weather it's an animal or gold..

I also agree with Denise's perspective. If they are guiding they need to do it legally.As an outfitter for animals, you need to have a permit to guide on public property. I'm sure it's the same with prospecting.

My opinion is if it's done legally and people are willing to pay for your knowledge, go for it

Posted by: fenixsmom Aug 6 2014, 10:51 AM

However, I would like to add that if you are usimg a outfitting business, make sure to verify their outfitting permit number with the BLM. They also need to be bonded and insured. If you find an operator without a permit you should report them to operation game thief @ 1- 800-332-4155. You can remain anonymous and most likely get a reward. I do not support poachers nor illegal operations in any way shape or form.

Posted by: Mrs.CP Aug 6 2014, 10:59 AM

I agree, thanks fenixsmom and kudos to your husband for doing it right! thumbsupsmileyanim.gif
cheers.gif

Posted by: fenixsmom Aug 6 2014, 12:28 PM

cheers.gif thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

Posted by: leonard Aug 6 2014, 03:40 PM

I guess I don't see any difference if I wanted to charge someone for me to take them out to show them how and where to go or joining the GPAA, paying for it, and then getting a book of claims I can go to. Also, not much difference than the BLM charging for a dredge permit to let you go on public land. That was a few years ago. This person is just cutting out the middle man and not giving them a book.About 10 years ago there was an outfit in Buena Vista that you paid for the day and then you could work on his claim. I had no problem with that as his claim was very good. I found an 3/4 pennyweight nugget on it on the Arkansas.
Leonard

Posted by: swizz Aug 6 2014, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (leonard @ Aug 6 2014, 08:10 AM) *
I don't personally have a problem with paying someone that knows more than I do to take their time to teach me. It's done all the time at institutions of higher learning.

It is perfectly legal to teach at an "institution of higher learning".... you got that right Leonard.
It is NOT LEGAL to offer paid guide services at a public recreation area without permitting or a type of outfitter/guide license. This can involve first aid training, CPR, liability, and other requirements in place to protect the consumer, etc.... and the guide from being sued for that matter.
Nobody has a problem with legal guide services. Fly by the seat of your pants guide operations at Cache Creek are ILLEGAL.
Get it?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Denise. BLM needs to know. It's just another thing they'll cite as a chronic problem when they close the area for good.

Posted by: leonard Aug 6 2014, 05:00 PM

QUOTE (swizz @ Aug 6 2014, 04:44 PM) *
It is perfectly legal to teach at an "institution of higher learning".... you got that right Leonard.
It is NOT LEGAL to offer paid guide services at a public recreation area.
Nobody has a problem with legal guide services. Guide operations at Cache Creek are ILLEGAL.
Get it?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Denise. BLM needs to know. It's just another thing they'll cite as a chronic problem when they close the area for good.


If a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention, it's just one more reason for them to close the area completely. The problems at Cache Creek aren't caused by a few guided trips. They are probably some of the very best at obeying the rules. The problems are caused by the people that don't know or don't care about the rules. That and over use of the are because of very few places to go. I don't care if it gets closed down, I have lots of places to go.

Leonard

Posted by: fenixsmom Aug 6 2014, 06:00 PM

Hey Swizz, can you attach a link that says that paid guides can't do so on a public recreational area. I would love to be able to quote that law from the source if possible. I was looking for the laws earlier and I never came across it. The only thing I saw from the blm website was that any guides need to apply for a permit for public land outfitting and they need to be bonded and insured. If you can provide that info I would greatly appreciate it!

Posted by: fenixsmom Aug 6 2014, 06:00 PM

Sorry, double posted on accident. Included this sentence for the edit. :D

Posted by: swizz Aug 6 2014, 06:22 PM

feinx..... Call the BLM Public Lands Information Center in Lakewood. 303-239-3600
Open 9-4

Posted by: swizz Aug 6 2014, 07:17 PM

QUOTE (leonard @ Aug 6 2014, 05:00 PM) *
If a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention, it's just one more reason for them to close the area completely.

Leonard

so.... just turn your head and cough while the vultures monetarily prey on noobies right next to you, illegally? If it were legal that's one thing, but COME ON. I know you don't personally go there and could care less whether they close it or not as you stated, but how do you even find it to be moral? I've never even been there but I give a hoot.
I'm not suggesting that "a bunch of people bring it to the BLM's attention".... but maybe they should now that you mention it. happy112.gif
Colorado Prospector Club is certainly not in the business of advocating illegal activities on recreational lands designated for prospecting, quite the opposite.

Posted by: fenixsmom Aug 6 2014, 11:42 PM

Thanks Swizz will do!

Posted by: Mrs.CP Aug 7 2014, 08:48 AM

sad.gif I find it hard to swallow most of what you are saying Leonard, as all you see as acceptable is stuff you never/will never see the CP club and site do. You know my feelings on those acceptable examples you used. I never told anyone to tell the BLM, just to question the person on licensing and insurance before using their services or you see them providing services in the field. Frustrates me because I see others advocating those actions instead....even recommending these people.

QUOTE
The problems are caused by the people that don't know or don't care about the rules. That and over use of the are because of very few places to go. I don't care if it gets closed down, I have lots of places to go.


You are correct about people that don't know or care about the rules. Person I'm seeing on the net is a good example I think. If you take a pebble and drop it into the water, then another, then another...just a few mind you, the effect is the same that the ripple ends up going a long ways! Get my point? Over use of the area because of very few places to go is just googoopucky! signs019.gif

Part of what we help teach people is researching and finding MANY places to go open to prospecting....in any state! These places also allow you to prospect with hand held equipment (highbanker and dredges included) without a permit. signs021.gif

No hard feelings on different opinions Leonard.
arms.gif

Posted by: ColoradoProspector Aug 8 2014, 10:19 AM

Ok let’s see if we can sort out some of the ripples in the pond of confusion that is Cache Creek and guided tours on FS or BLM lands… wacko.gif

Many folks are completely confused by the Cache creek areas rules. First let’s look at the areas designation just so we all understand where/what it is since it’s become a part of this threads discussion.
Cache creek prospecting area is contained within the Arkansas headwater recreational area, it is also a specially designated gold panning/sluicing area within the recreational headwaters area… similar to point bar where there will be no claims on that particular piece of ground, anyone can use for free without worry about claim jumping or research and is actually set up/designated for the recreational activities of gold prospecting within their special rules as stated for each. research.gif

On Cache creek there are no motors allowed while yet on the rest of the Ark headwaters rec area including point bar, you can get a permit to run a motorized unit. Rec areas for rec activities such as this can have these extra rules in place, they do not apply outside of each specified area…..ie Cache creek special rules (like no motors) do not extend outside of the Cache creek prospecting spot. Same with the motorized permits for the Ark headwater area….those do not apply outside of the rec area on any other BLM lands.

There can still be claims around the headwater recreational area borders as well as a few claims within the rec area along with many many privately held parcels in the rec area.
Hopefully that helps the basis of understanding for the rest of this discussion. whew.gif

Now back onto the threads original topic about guides and outfitters prospecting tours or licenses.
From the link Swizz posted on page one for DORA (Colorado’s department of regulatory agencies), you can find the listed professions the “state” regulates/licenses such as guides and outfitters, and this is another very confusing spot for some.
DORA (a state regulatory agency) regulates and issues licenses for the taking of wildlife or fish on lands the outfitter does not own. Think that out….a state agency regulates/issues licenses to take wildlife/fish on FS and BLM lands…kinda’ weird but that is what it is.
So, from the link for guides and outfitters on the DORA website, you’ll find a page that explains their mission as a dept and what their license covers and the gist of that page is….

QUOTE
“The Office of Outfitters Registration registers and regulates individuals and entities that practice in the State of Colorado as Outfitters, which is defined as the ‘taking or attempted take of wildlife’ on land that an Outfitter does not own.

Registration for Outfitters is mandatory in Colorado.

The Office works with several state and federal agencies including the Division of Parks and Wildlife, the Bureau of Land Management and the United States Forest Service in order to share vital information about unregistered outfitters and violations of other agency laws. “


From this one can see that guides and outfitters licenses are only for “the taking or attempted taking of wildlife/fish” on lands the outfitter does not own. Gold or gems are not wildlife or fish so there will not be a license issued for this type of guided tour from that agency.
How about the FS/BLM, do they allow this type of business to operate for prospecting? The answer is no it’s not an allowed activity, rather quite the opposite. It is in fact illegal to operate any commercial business on FS or BLM lands without a written contract from the U.S. government.
For this I don’t have a single handy link off the top of my head sorry, you’ll have to dive into the CFR’s if you want to verify it, but you’ll find it many times over in each one trust me.

For the FS lands you will need to read up on the 36cfr’s
For the BLM lands you will need to read up on the 43cfr’s
CFR’s (code of federal regulations) are to be used in conjunction with the USC (US Code/Law) to apply those laws in a consistent manner from one federal agency and area to another. The USC’s involved will also be quoted within each CFR which usually explains where/why it’s authorized as worded.

Both are a lot of reading but you’ll find that it’s not legal to operate a guided tour (commercial business) for pay on federally administered lands. That goes for any BLM or FS lands, and yes including any recreational areas like the Ark headwaters and Cache creek.
So it’s just not possible to legally run a “guided gold or gem prospecting” tour/trip on any FS or BLM lands. Just as it’s not legal to charge money for access to claims. There are no licenses/permits issued for these guided tours because it’s not allowed by law!

The shortened answer after all this……… you can look and look for that permit/license, but if it does not exist you will not find one, and if there isn’t an issued permit/license then there certainly can’t be a legally operating business of this type!

Hope this helps folks understand all the “ripples in the pond”… char092.gif

Posted by: Caveman Aug 8 2014, 10:32 AM

Very clear and understandable, and in "plain language". Bravo, Mr CP! Thanks for taking the time to put that together. Man, I have a LOT of reading to do (and in legalese to boot)! This caveman brain just hurts to even think about that....

Posted by: fenixsmom Aug 8 2014, 06:21 PM

Thank you very much for the clarification! I greatly appreciate you setting me straight on that!

Posted by: swizz Aug 8 2014, 08:52 PM

Excellent clarification, thanks!

Posted by: russau Oct 8 2014, 06:51 AM

Thanks for the indepth explaination of this law. so what ive gathered is that it is illegal ONLY if it is a "guided" tour . so a person can do this if he isn't present (onsite) during the tour. maybe im reading to much into this , but if a person is making money off info being sold to them to do this , wouldn't that also be illegal?? takeing pictures for the potential clients, showing detailed maps and shareing advice could be also included in this illegal activity , wouldn't it?

Posted by: swizz Oct 8 2014, 07:42 AM

"Guided Tour"??
This thread is about physically guided extraction of minerals from privately held (recreational designated) lands in exchange for money or fees.
They are exploiting and profiting from a resource which is privately owned and designated for limited use to the general public as a courtesy of the land owner. Operations like this tend to tarnish the reputation of "recreational" prospecting. They didn't decide to allow prospecting on these recreational parcels with the intent of everyone setting up small enterprises that profit from their resources. Safety and other legal liabilities can also be a huge concern since these outfits carry no guide or outfitter certifications. They are essentially making up their own rules on private property which is designated for public "use"... not public "profit". They are not designated for the purpose of selling goods or services.
Try to set up a hot dog stand on a rec property, see what happens.

Posted by: russau Oct 8 2014, 02:46 PM

Swizz I understand what you have presented. I was referring to Dans post on "guided tours" on public land and was wanting to clarify a point of confusion on my part .If a person is making money off of public land without being his claim or anothers claim with tours weither guided or not , wouldn't that alsp be illegal? to me it sounds like the same thing. Im not trying to justify anyones actions! Im just trying to figure out what the wacoenviromentalists are thinking while reading this forum.

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 08:01 AM

QUOTE (russau @ Oct 8 2014, 02:46 PM) *
Im just trying to figure out what the wacoenviromentalists are thinking

They are probably as pissed as we are.
They are also likely rejoicing because it's another nice big fat thing they can parade into the media to show the greediness and exploitation that is running amok. Not real mining, an exploitation of recreational users and resources for the purpose of profit.

Posted by: ColoradoProspector Oct 9 2014, 09:24 AM

Your question(s) or comparisons are varied Russ but let me see if I can simplify the concept.

Guided tours on public lands for money without proper permitting and insurance is illegal (BLM or FS lands). No one can sell products or services on those lands without written contract from the gov. just like the attended FS campgrounds. A private company has a written contract to attend and charge fees at these FS campgrounds in several states. Without the contract as well as insurances etc they could not operate on FS lands as campground attendants.
Same with guided hunting on BLM or FS lands and even on private lands for hunting.......guided tours are licensed and insured through the proper dept.

Yes in comparing to claims held and presented as "you get access" if you join is also illegal. Mining claims can only be held for one purpose and that is mining, charging fees to access a claim (access is already your right) is just backasswards and IMHO not legal or within the intent of the mining law. Again someone or entity in these cases are directly using FS or BLM lands holding mining claims to charge money. This is not mining and they might as well just set up a pay booth on the claim gate to take the money.....but they couldn't do that now could they? Of course not, that would be vending/selling a product or service from or for access to OUR LANDS!

You just can't pop up a concession stand to sell a service or goods without the "owners" permission no matter where it is. On FS or BLM lands the owners are us the citizens who all have rights to those lands without being charged fees for access or guided tours.
Does that make sense?

Hope I didn't confuse your thought train any further.

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 09:43 AM

Well said Dan! That is it in a nutshell.
When I worked at Vagabond Ranch.... we offered guided hikes. The hikes went from the ranch property and up into NF.
In order for us to conduct guided hikes (yes, just hiking) for guests on NF lands our guides were required to have BCA certification. This is an expensive course and very entailing in regard to safety, avalanche training, and leadership.... and there is a good reason for that. Medical emergencies happen, nobody knows the general health of their clientele. It happened at the ranch more than once and all of our bases were covered in regard to guest trauma/health/triage and legal liability. There are a lot of variables involved when unknown people are under your guidance.

Posted by: russau Oct 9 2014, 12:52 PM

YEP Dan and Swizz I understand you! But it sounded like(the way I read this) If the person takeing money for this info IS illegal if they go on public lands (BLM or FS) BUT ok if they don't go with these people? this don't make much sense if it is true! But whats the difference? that's what im asking.

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 01:13 PM

QUOTE (russau @ Oct 9 2014, 12:52 PM) *
If the person takeing money for this info IS illegal if they go on public lands (BLM or FS) BUT ok if they don't go with these people? that's what im asking.

You'll need to rephrase that question... is it 2 questions in one? I don't quite understand what you're asking.
It is not illegal to sell information if that is your question. Wanna buy a treasure map?
If you're selling the information while standing on NF, BLM, or private property (rec area) without a vendor permit there might be an issue.

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 01:27 PM

ok wait... I think I know what you're asking.
Hypothetical:
Person 1 buys information from Person 2 that is in regard to something pertaining to NFS or BLM managed lands without warranty or disclaimer.
Person 1 later finds out that Person 2 sold them out of date, bogus, or wrong information (without warranty or disclaimer).
Is this illegal? That would be a matter of Person 1 taking Person 2 to small claims court. A Buyer Beware scenario, especially without warranty or disclaimer.
If Person 1 breaks the law because of this bogus information who is liable? Person 1 for being a sucker.
Is this the root of what you're asking?

Posted by: russau Oct 9 2014, 02:09 PM

Sort of! let me rephrase it. If person #1 goes onto public land and takes pictures of a good honey hole (shows pictures of gold they found there , and then sells this info back to another person/persons#2,3,4,etc. even though he isn't present when persons #2.3.4 etc go onto public land, would that be legal?

Posted by: russau Oct 9 2014, 02:15 PM

I used to go to a lot of different states (before my back gave out) and knowing their laws for each state and keeping them in my binder (for EZ access to them if I need to show them to a officer) gets to be a big job trying to keep the laws straight in my head. I usually do a lot of research each winter on the state that I plan on going to! Heck im still trying to get info from the Missouri Department of Natural Resources. they are very quick on getting or letting people know. Keeping every one in the state of confussion helps keep " them prospectors" at bay!even Colorado has its own problems! several years back I bought my permit to dredge the Arkansa River on a friends claim only to have my money sent back to me after dredge season. what a gift that was.

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 03:33 PM

QUOTE (russau @ Oct 9 2014, 02:09 PM) *
Sort of! let me rephrase it. If person #1 goes onto public land and takes pictures of a good honey hole (shows pictures of gold they found there , and then sells this info back to another person/persons#2,3,4,etc. even though he isn't present when persons #2.3.4 etc go onto public land, would that be legal?

The sale would be legal as you described it. Someone sold a photo to someone else, done deal.
The rest of your question doesn't make sense. Is the seller expected to "accompany" someone after the sale of some photo, what's that about? Whether or not someone "accompanies" someone... or is "present"??? Present and accompanying what? You need to know if that is legal? That doesn't make sense.
What exactly would be the purpose of this "accompaniment". rolleyes.gif
An accompaniment that is mineral related and in exchange for money is illegally guiding, paint it any way you like. Are you trying to put lipstick on a pig?
I can probably guess who the pig is. poke.gif Rhymes with........ dandy, mandy, candy? stirthepot.gif chin.gif stirthepot.gif

Posted by: Caveman Oct 9 2014, 04:29 PM

SWIZZ! smiley-laughing021.gif

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 05:02 PM

laugh.gif LOL.... sorry, it took some work to decipher his line of questions... and I probably still didn't figure out what the question was.

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 05:34 PM

Why can't these guys do it legally?
Get the permissions and certifications that are required. Operate by the rules of law that are designed to protect clientele, resources, and property rights.
It's expensive, they're lazy, ignorance, greed, just trying to turn a fast buck, just for the love of doing it, other? Take your pick, I don't know. People are people.
Do it legally and nobody has a problem with it. Of course that definitely raises overhead for the seller, increases liability, and severely limits locations where they can guide or "accompany". mellow.gif
.... and I'll lay off on Brandy, Mandy, Dandy, maybe he or she is operating legally for all I know. confused0082[1].gif

Posted by: russau Oct 9 2014, 07:06 PM

im sorry I brought it up.

Posted by: swizz Oct 9 2014, 09:12 PM

It's worthy of discussion. Forgive me for being brash... I'm a little overly passionate about land use laws (and financial exploitation of people and resources). These things are important to me.

Posted by: Mrs.CP Oct 11 2014, 09:21 AM

I agree Swizz, we definitely feel the same way. That's just one of the many reasons I love this site so much....we do it right and help others understand the right way to do it! thumbsupsmileyanim.gif For an example, I see on this website people meeting up with one another to help teach them in the field....for free just because we care here.

Awesome work, it's people like you that make us proud of what the site has become!
smiley-clapping.gif

Posted by: ColoradoProspector Oct 15 2014, 05:21 PM

Don't be sorry Russ, you seemed to have a question in mind but maybe it would be eaier to ask a more direct question via PM first? I'll be happy to answer it if I can. PM coming at ya'. smile.gif

Posted by: swizz Mar 25 2016, 05:34 AM

Bump, for the 2016 season.

Posted by: EMac Mar 25 2016, 12:02 PM

Up front, I haven't had any personal run-ins with illegal guides as described. I'm going to risk stirring up the hornet's nest a bit I think though; please keep in mind my intent isn't to create drama, but rather better understand and perhaps generate some worthwhile discussion.

Reading through about unlicensed guides, I'm on board....generally in principal, but not necessarily wholly. I looked up DORA requirements to get a OUT license, and it has at least the first aid course, a bond, insurance and the app fee. It also says it doesn't guarantee you'll be registered (disclaimer about making long-term career choices based on the application submittal). I also saw it was for hunting and fishing with no mention of prospecting; I saw no permits for prospecting type stuff on DORA.

My personal experience: To get my feet literally wet with prospecting, I started out by contacting a guy with a claim up on the Arkansas (likely the same guy Leonard mentioned previously - PM). The gold bug bit me hard that day, and I moved on to further my knowledge of the subject, joining here, subscribing to ICMJ, buying equipment, meeting some local folks that compete in panning competitions, and soaking up whatever I can. I highly doubt PM was licensed and bonded as a guide, but we were also on his claim vs public lands. I absolutely loved the experience and frankly want to meet up with him again (great guy). He showed me and my son how to pan, cut us loose on his dredge most of the day, centrifuged the sluice concentrates so I had some very concentrated black sands, gave us an old black pan, vial, snuffer and offered an invite to return to his claims. PM charged me $25 for this which I'll argue all day long isn't even close to financial exploitation; I reckon he may have lost a few bucks since he was busy helping us instead of mining. I wouldn't be on this site today if it weren't for the experience. Granted my situation is different from the main discussion topic since it was his claim we were on, but I bring it up because to me very few situations are solidly black and white. I suspect there are at least a few folks in the prospecting community that had inauspicious beginnings with an illegal guide. Playing devil's advocate a bit, I'd like to try and suss out the shades of gray and better understand:

1) Is this a general disdain against prospecting guides? Even when properly credentialed (assuming there was such a credential)?
2) Is this an emotional argument, or one grounded in macro data showing a detriment to the prospecting community?
3) With the assumption that most in the prospecting community are against big government, who should enforce removing these illegal operations?
4) If a guide were offering their services for donations only, would your position shift?
5) If they changed it from "guided gold prospecting" to "we'll teach you techniques on how to recover gold" does that change your opinion?
5a) Does your answer change if they have proper business permits to rent equipment or teach a course since there is no prospecting guide license?
6) Is this primarily an issue that they're not paying for permits and taxes on money under the table (doesn't seem likely given the assumption in 2)?
7) Are you aware of any case law against illegal guides?
8) I'm also trying to contrast this position around illegal guides with say the California dredging permit. Would you argue the California dredgers are ultimately wrong and should no longer dredge unless they get a permit which the state will not grant (seemingly similar situation that there is no prospecting guide permit)?

I'm considering the financial exploitation piece, which also bugs me, but that's so ubiquitous everywhere (life in general, not just prospecting), that I wonder why focus on this extremely small population. Personally, if there was someone on Clear Creek offering a similar experience as what Phil provided for a reasonable price, permit or no, I think it would further elevate the community versus act as a bad apple.

Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much.

E


Posted by: Silky Mar 25 2016, 12:27 PM

QUOTE (EMac @ Mar 25 2016, 12:02 PM) *
Up front, I haven't had any personal run-ins with illegal guides as described. I'm going to risk stirring up the hornet's nest a bit I think though; please keep in mind my intent isn't to create drama, but rather better understand and perhaps generate some worthwhile discussion.

Reading through about unlicensed guides, I'm on board....generally in principal, but not necessarily wholly. I looked up DORA requirements to get a OUT license, and it has at least the first aid course, a bond, insurance and the app fee. It also says it doesn't guarantee you'll be registered (disclaimer about making long-term career choices based on the application submittal). I also saw it was for hunting and fishing with no mention of prospecting; I saw no permits for prospecting type stuff on DORA.

My personal experience: To get my feet literally wet with prospecting, I started out by contacting a guy with a claim up on the Arkansas (likely the same guy Leonard mentioned previously - PM). The gold bug bit me hard that day, and I moved on to further my knowledge of the subject, joining here, subscribing to ICMJ, buying equipment, meeting some local folks that compete in panning competitions, and soaking up whatever I can. I highly doubt PM was licensed and bonded as a guide, but we were also on his claim vs public lands. I absolutely loved the experience and frankly want to meet up with him again (great guy). He showed me and my son how to pan, cut us loose on his dredge most of the day, centrifuged the sluice concentrates so I had some very concentrated black sands, gave us an old black pan, vial, snuffer and offered an invite to return to his claims. PM charged me $25 for this which I'll argue all day long isn't even close to financial exploitation; I reckon he may have lost a few bucks since he was busy helping us instead of mining. I wouldn't be on this site today if it weren't for the experience. Granted my situation is different from the main discussion topic since it was his claim we were on, but I bring it up because to me very few situations are solidly black and white. I suspect there are at least a few folks in the prospecting community that had inauspicious beginnings with an illegal guide. Playing devil's advocate a bit, I'd like to try and suss out the shades of gray and better understand:

1) Is this a general disdain against prospecting guides? Even when properly credentialed (assuming there was such a credential)?
2) Is this an emotional argument, or one grounded in macro data showing a detriment to the prospecting community?
3) With the assumption that most in the prospecting community are against big government, who should enforce removing these illegal operations?
4) If a guide were offering their services for donations only, would your position shift?
5) If they changed it from "guided gold prospecting" to "we'll teach you techniques on how to recover gold" does that change your opinion?
5a) Does your answer change if they have proper business permits to rent equipment or teach a course since there is no prospecting guide license?
6) Is this primarily an issue that they're not paying for permits and taxes on money under the table (doesn't seem likely given the assumption in 2)?
7) Are you aware of any case law against illegal guides?
8) I'm also trying to contrast this position around illegal guides with say the California dredging permit. Would you argue the California dredgers are ultimately wrong and should no longer dredge unless they get a permit which the state will not grant (seemingly similar situation that there is no prospecting guide permit)?

I'm considering the financial exploitation piece, which also bugs me, but that's so ubiquitous everywhere (life in general, not just prospecting), that I wonder why focus on this extremely small population. Personally, if there was someone on Clear Creek offering a similar experience as what Phil provided for a reasonable price, permit or no, I think it would further elevate the community versus act as a bad apple.

Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much.

E


Thanks for the viewpoint. I, as a complete novice, might actually be where you were when you used a "guide" as I have not actually "met" any claim holders, I have only chatted with some online. So, if a claim owner offered to show me how to do this or that on HIS claim and there was a good possibility of finding something and learning for a fee that was reasonable, I would do the same. However, he did mention that there were some legit ones as well. Problem is, how would you know? I guess it would be more trial and error if you were really that serious about it. It might be worth the risk at $25.

Silky



Posted by: CP Mar 25 2016, 01:57 PM

QUOTE (EMac @ Mar 25 2016, 12:02 PM) *
Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles too much. E


Not a problem Emac, I've got a thought or two to offer on the topic....... Starting off and getting a good experience is awesome and very glad you and others have started out successfully that way.

For me this comes to two very basic principles which in my opinion cuts the "gray" area out completely as well as explains why there is no "prospecting guide permits" issued by the State/DORA on NF or BLM lands.

First and most importantly.....there is only 1 reason a citizen can stake and hold a mining claim and that is for mining purposes only! No matter how it's laid out, charging a fee to dig or be present for lessons etc. of any kind on a location mining claim clearly is not a mining activity. Mining is a profit business venture to extract something from the earth....not other people.

Second very clear violation of the law with this kind of set up on location claims is the law that reads something about .....it's illegal to hold or charge money for any commercial venture (guide services would be that) on NF or BLM without express written permission via the proper authorized authority/department. That would be the guided permits issued by DORA such as hunting and fishing guides must have. Further thought on this train will also reveal that should the state want to create a prospecting guide permit....how would mineral ownership play out, be researched or implemented within that program. AH HA!!...... It is not possible! smiley-shocked003.gif smiley-cool14.gif

For those two main reasons I've always said and will continue to believe any fee's charged in this way (good out comes or not) are in fact illegal. The only way to have a legal guided prospecting adventure while charging a fee is to have the tours on private (patented) lands! There the owner can do what they chose in that fashion.

Clear creek (Jefferson county open space) is also private land where the owners (county) have implanted special rules about both prospecting and permitting for commercial ventures of any kind on the county's property as Swizz just posted in the other thread. thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

Beware out there folks even though it seems harmless at first, it really is not and over time only creates confusion and perpetuates more "get rich quick" scammers to try similar deals. MINING PROSPECTORS FOR THEIR MONEY IS NOT A MINING ACTIVITY!! slaphead.gif smiley-laughing021.gif

....... 2c.gif


Posted by: johnnybravo300 Mar 25 2016, 09:09 PM

The guy we met that day offered his services to us two or three times. I'm not saying he was a scammer but that didnt crossed my mind at the time.
He probably knows his stuff and maybe he was legit, I really have no clue. He just seemed pushy and slighly invasive to me so I got irritated with him.
I really don't have a problem with people selling services like that if there are customers interested in hiring a guide. People can spend their own money the way they want and when people have certain skills it may cost some money. That's how the world works, or is supposed to work.
The govt makes it difficult for everyone, more expensive, and they like to criminalize natural occuring industry between two willing participants. Money passing between hands is always a good thing for everyone but the crooks always demand their share. No matter how much they regulate the world and invent permits and make new rules two things never change.
There is a cash market for everything.
Prohibition doesn't work.
I didn't mean to accuse the fella of being a crook, he was just pushy and overbearing. That could just be in his nature. I didn't get bad vibes from him or anything like that but he made it clear we could hire him to find gold and that he had an open schedule. I forgot the price he quoted but he also said he keeps half the gold!
A legit hired pro would let the client keep all the gold they find. I haven't heard anything that rediculous since Bernie Sanders. Thems almost fightin words amigo.
Since its private land they can regulate it how they want and I know this. If people want to go there they should follow the rules or not get caught breaking them. He may not have known that he was breaking the rules and thought we were just tourists looking to strike it rich at any expense.
Who knows.





Posted by: Denise Jun 28 2016, 11:52 AM

That time of year! signs019.gif

There is a NEW group I see on Facebook (posted on our group page) offering guided services with a name VERY similar to ours (just add an s) We are not part of this group and do not condone what they are doing. Just a heads up to those who know we like things done right here. research.gif info_grin.gif

Buyers beware!!

Posted by: swizz Jun 28 2016, 02:35 PM

Ridiculous, I hope they get busted.

C.33. Commercial Activity: It shall be unlawful to conduct any commercial activity or concession, or to provide any service, product or activity for which a fee is charged, on Open Space lands, except when a valid Jefferson County Open Space Special Activity Agreement is issued.

If anyone catches them in the act while you're there:

All prospectors must adhere to all Jefferson County Open Space rules and regulations. Report active violations to Jeffco Sheriff’s non-emergency number: 303-271-0211


I'm not on facebook but if any of you who care about this are... cut and paste (to them) the blue and red quotes I posted.

Posted by: Denise Jun 28 2016, 03:33 PM

This is offered for more counties than just Jefferson Chris. For claims located all over Colorado as part of the guided service.

Posted by: swizz Jun 28 2016, 04:24 PM

QUOTE (Denise @ Jun 28 2016, 03:33 PM) *
This is offered for more counties than just Jefferson Chris. For claims located all over Colorado as part of the guided service.

Oh.... well that's actually breaking Federal Law... different ballgame, even if they own the claims. Perhaps file an inquiry or complaint to the DOI/BLM with their advertisement as proof? That may be all it takes to draw their attention to it and start an investigation. Wouldn't be hard to send an agent in as a customer, easy bust.

Posted by: MikeS Jun 29 2017, 05:38 PM

Bumping this up for the 2017 season.

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