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How do you determine when your disturbance becomes significant??
realnice
post Jul 28 2010, 10:49 AM
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Hi all, im new to the site. Been prospecting for about 10 years here in Colorado. I hold a few mining claims and am wondering about determining significant disturbance on historically disturbed areas. An area where i have a claim has been logged and mined for a long time and the land shows it. It also has very heavy 4wd use. it is not very pristine at all. One of my claims is visible from the road so recently it has come upon scrutiny by the USFS. there is a 40 ft x 20 ft. worked area. The area is disturbed and is comprised of filled in diggs.
The 228.4 Plan of operations—notice of intent—requirements seem to fit my site as to not have to file a plan of operations, but one stipulation is...
(v) Operations, which in their totality,
will not cause surface resource disturbance
which is substantially different
than that caused by other users
of the National Forest System who are
not required to obtain a Forest Service
special use authorization, contract, or
other written authorization;

If they deem my operation to be causing significant disturbance what can they do? Arent they supposed to inform me to stop and complete a plan of operations? What are my rights here?

How do I appeal a desicion by the USFS?






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realnice :music:
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Mineral Estate G...
post Mar 30 2011, 07:22 PM
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The Forest Service and BLM (as well other agencies) have no authority over uncommon mineral deposit claims. Reference the Executive Summary The Mining Law: The Extent of Federal Authority Over Public Domain http://www.miningrights.org/exec.pdf The reference in the letter to NEPA as authority, even if applicable, which it isn't, has even less validty being NEPA is merely supplemental to other lawful authority. As proofed in the Executive Summary there is no lawful authority NEPA can supplement.

Always communicate in writing with any agency. The writing is the record. Oral meetings are not and mean nothing. Do not get lulled into using agency terminology. Being these relate to Common Mineral Material, CMM, claims terms such as "Operator" or "Operation" are improper and inappropriate to describe your Uncommon Mineral Property, UMP, or development thereof.

Without a fuller discussion, because all this has been pointed out before, read over the FSM 2800 to find, as regards the mineral grant there is no inherent authority in the Forest Service to apply anything. The "policy manual" can not be "violated" because it is instructions to the employees. Please find in the FSM "However, when reasonable efforts have been made to obtain compliance with the regulations and the noncompliance is unnecessarily or unreasonably causing injury, loss, or damage to surface resources, authorized officers shall take enforcement action (FSM 2817.3(5))." This shows, at least, and much more actually, there has to be probable cause based triggers, "noncompliance is unnecessarily or unreasonably", required to invoke agency intervention. Not even noncompliance triggers an intervention unless it is both unnecessary and unreasonable. Moreover, NEPA is not applicable or implicated in the first instance, if it could be applied to Uncommon Mineral Deposit, UMD, locations. Consequently, when in compliance with the mineral grant there is no unnecessary or unreasonable development, or enjoyment, of your exclusive possession.

Notice the surface management right clearly indicates reference only to Common Mineral Materials, CMM, or disposable minerals, not Uncommon Minerals, the granted minerals, UMD. Read for the exception to FS authority, that's us grantees: 2814.13 - Right To Manage and Dispose of Vegetative Surface Resources The right to manage other resources (except mineral deposits subject to location under the mining laws) and the limitations on such rights on claims validated prior to July 23, 1955, are found in FSM 2812 and 2813.

Sounds like the FS must make room for us, not the other way around. And we don't have to ask: 2814.21 - Respect Claim and Claimant's Property The Forest Service must respect claims and claimants' property by using precautions to avoid damage to claim corner markers, excavations, and other mining improvements and equipment.

Neither does this sound like FS can demand anything either. Locators of mineral deposit locations acquire rights against the United States, not so for CMM: 2813.1 - Rights of Claimants By location and entry, in compliance with the 1872 act, a claimant acquires certain rights against other citizens and against the United States (FSM 2811).

MEG
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Posts in this topic
- realnice   How do you determine when your disturbance becomes significant??   Jul 28 2010, 10:49 AM
- - ColoradoProspector   Hi realnice and welcome to the forums, we are al...   Jul 29 2010, 11:27 AM
- - realnice   I have a mining claim that was unfortunately shut ...   Nov 18 2010, 11:51 PM
|- - Mineral Estate Grantee   Folks, Realnice, The way the Forest Service sees i...   Nov 22 2010, 12:47 AM
|- - iowajoey   QUOTE (realnice @ Nov 18 2010, 11:51 PM) ...   Nov 23 2010, 08:11 PM
- - russau   if this is your legal federal mining claim, you DO...   Nov 21 2010, 06:47 AM
- - ColoradoProspector   Hi Realnice, Russ is correct, you completely have...   Nov 21 2010, 12:12 PM
- - Coalbunny   Title 18, Part I, Chapter 13 Civil Rights Sec. 24...   Nov 22 2010, 02:22 AM
|- - russau   it is a violation of federal law to stop/impede/in...   Nov 23 2010, 06:12 AM
|- - dickb   QUOTE (russau @ Nov 23 2010, 06:12 AM) it...   Nov 23 2010, 09:55 AM
- - ColoradoProspector   Hi Joey and welcome to the forums, I've never...   Nov 25 2010, 05:19 PM
- - realnice   Well, let me begin by saying thank you for all...   Nov 27 2010, 12:59 PM
|- - dickb   Hi realnice: I am still wondering if you have fil...   Nov 27 2010, 06:17 PM
- - realnice   QUOTE (realnice @ Nov 27 2010, 11:59 AM) ...   Nov 27 2010, 09:10 PM
|- - dickb   Hi Again realnice: If the BLM is solid behind you...   Nov 27 2010, 10:14 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   Pit size of 1600 sq ft pit can be (in Colorado) 5-...   Nov 28 2010, 10:43 AM
- - realnice   QUOTE (ColoradoProspector @ Jan 3 2007, 12...   Nov 28 2010, 12:01 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   Good work, that's the quote I was refering to ...   Nov 28 2010, 12:10 PM
- - realnice   Here's a document that I have on significant d...   Nov 28 2010, 01:35 PM
- - realnice   Ok y'all, (those who have read up on this thre...   Nov 30 2010, 06:21 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   Hi again realnice, Yes it is very sad when they d...   Dec 2 2010, 08:24 AM
- - realnice   So, I am finally piecing together my appeal and ho...   Dec 13 2010, 12:47 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   Good luck with it too when finished. I'm think...   Dec 15 2010, 01:12 PM
- - realnice   Well I found that quote I was looking for about n...   Dec 25 2010, 12:19 AM
- - russau   Good luck on your trip and Merry Christmass and Ha...   Dec 25 2010, 06:20 AM
- - Forestwalker   "weather or not the operator submits a NOI, t...   Jan 2 2011, 03:03 PM
- - realnice   Quick update: Got a call yesterday from a...   Jan 8 2011, 05:59 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   Hi realnice, Great work on your response and you ...   Jan 15 2011, 10:43 AM
- - realnice   Hola from Costa Rica.:) No info from the FS yet. ...   Feb 5 2011, 10:57 AM
- - realnice   While in Costa Rica I had a Fax of a F.S document ...   Mar 8 2011, 05:11 PM
- - amethystguy   This is almost a nail biting thread. Can't wa...   Mar 9 2011, 08:24 AM
|- - swizz   QUOTE (amethystguy @ Mar 9 2011, 07:24 AM...   Mar 9 2011, 08:47 AM
- - ColoradoProspector   QUOTE (swizz @ Mar 9 2011, 07:47 AM) Yes...   Mar 9 2011, 10:56 AM
|- - swizz   QUOTE (ColoradoProspector @ Mar 9 2011, 09...   Mar 9 2011, 09:13 PM
- - Mrs.CP   Haha! I about spit my drink on the computer af...   Mar 10 2011, 08:12 AM
|- - leonard   QUOTE (Mrs.CP @ Mar 10 2011, 07:12 AM) Ha...   Mar 11 2011, 06:23 PM
- - realnice   Haha! Bikini Car wash!.... I assume I...   Mar 10 2011, 11:10 AM
- - swizz   I'm going to stick with my classic one-piece b...   Mar 12 2011, 12:31 PM
- - realnice   Ok y'all. Here's a little stuff for you to...   Mar 25 2011, 03:38 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   Interesting letter for sure. I'd say the range...   Mar 30 2011, 10:41 AM
- - Mineral Estate Grantee   The Forest Service and BLM (as well other agencies...   Mar 30 2011, 07:22 PM
- - realnice   Ok, so sorry for being away for a while. Life just...   Jul 14 2011, 12:05 PM
- - Coalbunny   If I were in your shoes, I would get all your duck...   Aug 2 2011, 01:09 AM
- - realnice   Ok, going in for another meeting today in a few ho...   Aug 23 2011, 10:53 AM
- - OkieJon   Realnice,Any updates?   May 7 2012, 12:44 PM
- - realnice   ...I paid the bond and am operating again..They tr...   Jul 5 2013, 09:40 AM
|- - Mrs.CP   QUOTE (realnice @ Jul 5 2013, 09:40 AM) ....   Jul 7 2013, 08:44 AM
- - swizz   Very good news!   Jul 5 2013, 05:31 PM
- - realnice   No . I'm still limited to hand tools   Jul 8 2013, 09:01 AM
- - Mrs.CP   That doesn't even seem right of the forest ser...   Jul 9 2013, 10:44 AM
- - Caveman   Realnice, is your claim located in an ACEC (Area o...   Jul 9 2013, 11:21 AM
|- - swizz   QUOTE (Caveman @ Jul 9 2013, 11:21 AM) ...   Jul 9 2013, 02:59 PM
|- - Caveman   QUOTE (swizz @ Jul 9 2013, 03:59 PM) well...   Jul 9 2013, 09:41 PM
- - swizz   I've never heard of ACEC. New designation? Wha...   Jul 9 2013, 10:13 PM
- - Caveman   I just ran into this, I do not know how long it ha...   Jul 9 2013, 10:54 PM
|- - swizz   QUOTE (Caveman @ Jul 9 2013, 10:54 PM) Go...   Jul 10 2013, 05:54 AM
- - russau   im not as up-to-date as many are here but it sure ...   Jul 10 2013, 05:43 AM
- - Caveman   Both of the places I want to work near here are in...   Jul 10 2013, 06:16 AM
- - swizz   I have been enlightened regarding ACEC (and I shou...   Jul 12 2013, 09:04 AM
- - ColoradoProspector   You're welcome Chris. I'd heard of the ...   Jul 12 2013, 11:08 AM
- - Caveman   SOOoooooo....... I do not have to file a POO to us...   Jul 12 2013, 01:15 PM
- - swizz   Who owns the land?   Jul 12 2013, 02:01 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   QUOTE (Caveman @ Jul 12 2013, 01:15 PM) S...   Jul 12 2013, 02:02 PM
- - Caveman   Interesting...... there are mining claims there (...   Jul 12 2013, 03:37 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   Right Caveman, a POO (plan of operation) is only f...   Jul 15 2013, 10:44 AM
- - Caveman   Well, I have highjacked this thread long enough, s...   Jul 16 2013, 09:05 AM
- - realnice   Havent been around a while. To answer a few questi...   Dec 16 2014, 12:55 PM
|- - swizz   QUOTE (realnice @ Dec 16 2014, 11:55 AM) ...   Dec 16 2014, 05:53 PM
- - EMac   Interesting thread; thanks for the bump today real...   Dec 16 2014, 02:52 PM
- - ColoradoProspector   I’m still a bit confused on this scenario realnice...   Dec 21 2014, 09:08 PM
- - Caveman   It appears the USFS is not honoring the POO - even...   Dec 22 2014, 06:30 PM
- - Mrs.CP   QUOTE (realnice @ Dec 16 2014, 11:55 AM) ...   Dec 23 2014, 12:29 PM
- - Caveman   I suspect that's it - but it may not be..... I...   Dec 23 2014, 06:55 PM
- - realnice   Just checking in on this thread as I do occasional...   Apr 25 2017, 01:43 PM
- - CP   Thanks realnice but I was not confused at all I kn...   Apr 26 2017, 07:00 PM


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