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Coaldale Crater Gemstones, Meteorite Impact Produces Rare Specimens
EMac
post Aug 9 2016, 05:05 PM
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Do you have any macro pictures of the test? It doesn't appear in your pic that the sample has been heated/melted.

The test I saw, he blasted large portions of the samples. The ones showing any froth weren't tektite, compared to the known tektite control sample on the far right:



The test is also described here along with other criteria: Tektite Source

Documented tests of known tektite and suspected obsidian: Tektite test


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ASTROBLEME
post Aug 9 2016, 08:31 PM
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Eric,

Per your demand from earlier this evening, here is a macro picture of my Coaldale Meteorite sample that I subjected to the flame test. The attached photo is sufficient to satisfy your allegation that “It doesn't appear in your pic that the sample has been heated/melted”. Evidence of intense heating…enough to form a black soot deposit from burning off the residual cutting oils sourced from my rock saw… should be clearly evident to everyone that a sufficient flame test was completed.

You're confused by reading about tests that are designed to collect data on something that is unrelated to my testing . The pic and info you're posting is for testing tektites. The pic and info I posted was for testing the glassy chondrules in a meteorite.

Read my posts more closely before you accuse me of failing to perform a simple test procedure... info_grin.gif

ASTROBLEME

Attached Image


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"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
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James and Cyndi
post Aug 10 2016, 09:04 AM
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this is good stuff. Thanks Astrobleme for sharing your work.
Thank you Emac for the questions. We expect nothing less giggle.gif


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James and Cyndi
post Aug 10 2016, 09:06 AM
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Astrobleme
Before getting uptight about Erics questions, just know that he is trying to help the learning process along. There is a lot of info you have so graciously unleashed to us. So if nobody gives feedback or tries to elevate the discussion what's the point. I guarantee the intent was not to accuse you of failure to perform a test but to offer perspective from those of us interested in the subject. Your lifetime of knowledge can only be absorbed so quickly. We have had one week. I commend Eric for his ability to dive headfirst into subjects such as this. Otherwise this thread would become just a stagnant post.


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CP
post Aug 10 2016, 11:46 AM
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I agree, Emac is just diving into the subject and I'm confident that Johnny will be giving us plenty of additional information as we go with all his work involved over the years. thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

The last pic you posted of the heat tested sample definitely looks melted to me and no bubbling/frothing which would indicate tektite from the heat test for sure! (edited to add.....) But that is a meteorite sample heat tested and the melt looks glassy or similar to me. Would that indicate any certain material in the meteorite heated area then too?

I also thought I could see the "shattering followed the shock lamellae in that blue-green glassy chondrule" you were showing in the 10x close up too.

Thanks Johnny and Emac, this thread will be a fun info filled read I'm sure! happy088.gif I thoroughly enjoy attempting to "wrap my Sasquatch brain" around the concepts and possibilities of what these super impacts could have, or did have on the total tectonics evolution. Even at a global scale there could be effects felt on other continents from such an event or multiple events.

atomic.gif signs021.gif


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EMac
post Aug 10 2016, 12:29 PM
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Hi Johnny,

Feel free to read back over my question and response: I refer to tektites quite clearly I think, and only edited once previously to correct a hyperlink. I don't see any errors, but if I helped generate the confusion misusing a term, it wasn't purposeful. I suspect context should give us a good clue in those situations if there are any.

What I am guilty of is reading your post too fast last night and posting before leaving. Posting a picture of “shocked quartz” in a thread you start off in bold as Flame Testing confused me since I missed that you changed gears right before the pic. I took the pic to be evidence of your flame testing which wasn’t the case. I’m not sure why you subsequently posted a flamed meteorite pic in response to my errant question; can you point me to any objective material showing what conclusions I/we should draw from your flamed sample? Unfortunately for me, in order to reconcile some of your theories, I have to go look them up. For instance with your “shocked quartz”, I’ve looked at a number of pictures of this known phenomena, and I don’t see the shock lamellae (fine lines in quartz) in your sample that you’re seeing. At least no examples that look like your pic (all examples exhibited light diffraction). I’m still trying to verify your claims around the carbonate accretionary lapilli as well, particularly when compared to other similar images. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but also means you haven't met the threshold necessary to demonstrate you're right.

I know my place here is the FNG that doesn't know crap about mining, geology or chemistry, and I'm ok with that. Everyone starts somewhere, I love this stuff and I’m learning more every day. I also know you're quite well versed in geology and hydrology, and ostensibly successful in your mining endeavors. For that I applaud you, and I genuinely hope to learn from you. That said, I’m not convinced your theories or testing are sound. This puts me in the quandary where I can either say nothing or I can challenge you. Since we'll all gain much more via the latter path, and I have no compunction questioning technical things: that's where we find ourselves. I'll be the first to admit studying tektites and associated meteorites is new to me. Good science and logical arguments are old hats though. Hopefully this dialogue will help you as well.

I suspect much of the confusion stems from the fact I’m not focused on your Coaldale theory; I’m considering any evidence at all three of your impact crater theories. I’ll buy you’re still putting together your work for Coaldale, but you announced your Gunnison theory 10 years ago.

You have an uphill battle since you have a massive conflict of interest. You’re actively marketing Gunnison Crater TektiteTM on your website, and D&D are cutting Coaldale samples for sale, so you clearly have a financial stake in the outcome of any test results. To me, this raises the bar even more. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but the appearance of impropriety is enough to raise red flags. I’m ultimately driving towards whether you have proof that what you’re selling is indeed tektite and/or meteorite; results beyond descriptive words or a few pictures we can't verify without additional data. From there it would be much easier to dive into and accept that you've discovered new impact craters.

It’s similar to what Bartleson said 10 years ago: “…if Tonko had found tektites associated with Hartman Rocks that it would be an interesting find, but given the current theories of the area's formation the idea of a meteorite impact was a remote possibility.” Simple tests like a flame test of your suspected tektites, or testing showing greater than 4% nickel content in your suspected meteorites would add credence to your theories. Seeing that your website and Colorado Prospector are the only places to find extremely limited info on the Gunnison crater, this gives me significant pause.

Since this is long winded, I’ll cut off my other technical challenges to pause here for comment.

Thanks for entertaining my questions and challenges, and in advance for your patience in answering them. I know I'm being pointed in my challenges, but I hope my respect for your knowledge, work and courage also shines through.

~Eric


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James and Cyndi
post Aug 10 2016, 01:36 PM
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ASTROBLEME
post Aug 11 2016, 01:53 PM
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Everyone,

Eric is accusing me of a massive conflict of interest, appearance of impropriety and complains that D&D are cutting Coaldale samples for sale. Rest assured that the samples being cut by CP are not for sale. Those samples are simply being prepared as gifts for my family, friends and associates. Since my Mom was quick to recognize the similarity between my Father's gemstone find 50 years ago and my discoveries at Coaldale Crater, she will have first choice of the cuts. Sharing this process via this thread was intended as my educational gift to forum visitors and CP members. I'm looking forward to seeing CP's finished product.

Given Eric's demeanor and disrespect towards me, I will not be responding to any of his further interrogations.

Sincerely,

ASTROBLEME

Eric's Quote from 1:29 PM on 8-11-2016: "You have an uphill battle since you have a massive conflict of interest. You’re actively marketing Gunnison Crater TektiteTM on your website, and D&D are cutting Coaldale samples for sale, so you clearly have a financial stake in the outcome of any test results. To me, this raises the bar even more. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but the appearance of impropriety is enough to raise red flags."


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"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
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GeoMatt
post Aug 11 2016, 10:53 PM
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Johnny-

Eric was perhaps a little blunt about it with a couple of statements, but he was just pointing out some differences between more formal research and what you have put together. I had some of the same questions in my own mind when reading through your posts. Now I don't mean to disparage your work, you've obviously taken a great deal of time with this, and you have stated that you are not interested in formal academic presentations of research. Nothing wrong with any of that, there are always significant contributions to science made in this way. However, when announcing discoveries and utilizing a public forum to provide some validation for your work, you should be prepared for questions on not only the research, but also the motivation for putting so much personal time, effort and money into the work - especially when the title of the thread uses "gemstones", and you have ongoing specimen sales and mining interests in other areas. It's a very skeptical and accusatory group here sometimes....

While I don't claim to have much knowledge in meteorites/tektites/impact geology, I do have a pretty good understanding of the underlying science based a couple of degrees in geology and engineering. For me, it would be greatly helpful (and educational) if you could share some of the laboratory data reports that must exist from some of this material. I'd also be interested in some descriptions/photos of the actual field sites where the material was collected - specifically the impact breccia and air fall deposition showing field relationships in outcrop, and where to that relationship have you found the shock melt meteorite fragments. Like you noted, I too am surprised that there would still be a ring structure of Devonian age in that location given the significant structural deformation and erosion history in the immediate vicinity. I'd be interested in seeing the most recent USGS map for the area to see that interpretation of the ring structure outcrop (if it has been mapped on a small enough scale) - I assume you would have this available. Also, any good references online in regard to the 38th Parallel Crater Chain that you can direct readers to?

Good science is made better through the challenging of data collection, analysis, and conclusions. It's best to remember this when posting and keep an open mind. You may not want an academic peer review, but you will receive a peer review wherever you publish and claim discovery.
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ASTROBLEME
post Aug 12 2016, 12:13 AM
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Dear GeoMatt,

In my very first post in this thread, I made it clear that Coaldale Crater was an impact event that occurred during the Oligocene Epoch and wasn't related to the 38th Parallel Structures of the late Devonian age. I'm not asking anyone to purchase anything as this effort is purely educational in nature. Demanding that I provide proprietary information on this discovery is ridiculous.

Given the lack of attention by you and others to the information that I've already put forth, any further effort to provide details and assist with a better understanding of this matter will be futile.

ASTROBLEME


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"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
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James and Cyndi
post Aug 12 2016, 07:50 AM
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GeoMatt
post Aug 12 2016, 08:29 AM
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There is truly nothing proprietary that I have asked for. Lab results? Field photos? Hardly, you are announcing a discovery. Back it up. It's not a "ridiculous" or unwarranted request. The only reason to retain information is if you seek to gain financially from it. Nothing wrong with that at all - many of us would do the same. But don't guise this as purely educational and then say the data is proprietary....

Also, my apologies for my own confusion. As I said, I'm not an impact event specialist by any means. You indicated that this work built upon your research of the 38th Parallel Structures, and therefore, when I glossed back over the posts to pose my questions, I missed the differentiation in your Coaldale structure. The other questions I have asked are very valid though.

The writer of an educational post should seek to educate, not be turned away in futility after a couple of questions. It reeks of insecurity in your work. Without defensible data, there is no recognizable discovery.

Best of luck though, as you do have some rather interesting specimens.




QUOTE (ASTROBLEME @ Aug 12 2016, 01:13 AM) *
Dear GeoMatt,

In my very first post in this thread, I made it clear that Coaldale Crater was an impact event that occurred during the Oligocene Epoch and wasn't related to the 38th Parallel Structures of the late Devonian age. I'm not asking anyone to purchase anything as this effort is purely educational in nature. Demanding that I provide proprietary information on this discovery is ridiculous.

Given the lack of attention by you and others to the information that I've already put forth, any further effort to provide details and assist with a better understanding of this matter will be futile.

ASTROBLEME

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CP
post Aug 13 2016, 02:50 PM
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Well this sure hasn't gone as expected when we started this thread. I've been re-reading and trying to figure out what happened here, I gotta' say…..WTF!! signs019.gif
Sorry, I think you're both off base and should re-read what's already been posted! research.gif


Johnny never said he's having me cut these for sale anywhere at any time nor did I imply that. As a matter of fact, we both very clearly stated this lapidary work I'm doing, which I'm very proud and thankful to have (thank you again Johnny), will help him in his years of work to further study and prove his Carbondale crater theory.

He also clearly stated as did I, his work IS STILL IN PROGRESS. And as far as his proprietary info or test results not being found in public documents/accessible…….Of course not, why would someone's privately paid testing results be accessible online? That would be proprietary info obviously to the person who paid for the test, would it not? While you may not be able to search on the net successfully for info or reports on his research in your 30 mins or even an hour of searching, does not mean Johnny's claims of his finds/discoveries are bullshit. I think his knowledge, experience and expertise is very extensive and I have never heard anything from him that sounded like he was incorrect, unprofessional or immoral, quite the opposite. I can completely understand his stance on his proprietary information concerning his ongoing, privately funded research studies which he's clearly stated this cutting project is part of.

IMHO….For anyone to take such an aggressive and demanding approach to Johnny's obvious extensive knowledge, research and generosity to share his "IN PROCESS" discovery findings with us all, does not sound like someone who wants to learn but rather just rebut his claims. Bummer! I'm disappointed to say the least, and I don't blame him for no longer responding to that part of this thread either!

I just hope the rest of us who do want to learn and share or even be a part of his discovery discussion do not miss that opportunity. Johnny has already said he will be sharing more info to back up his discovery as this thread continues too, so as we progress with the cutting project, he'll have more time to do just that with further discussions/questions from everyone as we go. Personally, I'll be looking forward to it. happy088.gif

Back onto this threads intended purpose which we will be continuing with, as an educational thread generously being shared by Johnny who has over 30 professional/personal work involved as I understand it, a lifelong passion for celestial impacts as well as mining/minerals in general. In my opinion Johnny is very well versed on the topic, has what I believe to be not only possible, but plausible, and very probable theories. His studies and results to me do make sense in what I think could be possible or probable events, as well as what's still there for us to learn as humans concerning our planets evolution, and most especially, celestial events influencing the planet over time. We are just beginning to crack that code and have so much left to learn! signs021.gif
And now onto "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say ……… eating-popcorn-03.gif




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CP
post Aug 13 2016, 03:00 PM
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Here's what I've marked for cab cut blanks so far…..doing lapidary work with new materials such as this or anything else you've never cut before, one can't assume that all these pieces will finish out. I may lose several to fractures or further breaks as I continue the project through each step. Several of these blanks will get one more short trip back to the trim saw to take off excess material/pieces, but you all get the idea of shapes to come.

These are the meteorite cuts. They cut nicely on the saw so I've got high hopes that they all turn out well. The upper left one I didn't mark anything on as I'll try to finish off that just as a "stand alone sample", the opposite side still has a rough uncut surface to compare a polished with. Should be a cool shelf piece if it works out.
Attached Image




These are the tektite pieces and one of the pieces I called conglomerate ….. more accurately, breccia.
I'm unsure if all of these will make it to the end of all the cutting processes, we'll just have to see. Those that do though show some very interesting characteristics that will hopefully show well in the final polishes. Again, a few of these will take a short trip back to the trim saw then it's on to dop sticks for the whole bunch. thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

Attached Image




For further interest towards the study of these samples, here's an inclusion in one of the tektite pieces which I'll be trimming off and saving for Johnny's future study. Pictures are not great sorry but it's very glassy/gemmy and I thought would be of interests to study if it can be caught from the cuttings also. I'll be happy to include these cuttings with all the rest of the stones, I'd imagine as someone who cuts, it might be really hard to find a lapidary cutter who can or would be willing/able to reclaim cuttings out of saw period. Let alone be able to assure the cuttings are a 99% pure or higher sample of that stones cuttings only. I'd be very happy to hear that those cuttings samples did help for study and find/verify further information in lab or microscope examination.

Attached Image

Attached Image


More updates on this project to follow soon…..



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ASTROBLEME
post Aug 13 2016, 07:54 PM
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Hello Everyone:

Here’s the most recent mapping data for the Coaldale area that indicates that it is a “Structurally Complex Area”. The reason for such complexity is, in my opinion, due to a deep impact.

Attached Image


Here’s a handy link for geologic mapping.

USGS INFO

I hope you find this useful.

ASTROBLEME


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"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
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