ColoradoProspector   CP Club Membership Info.

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Westcliffe and Silver Cliff Meteorite Craters, Further Evidence of Extinction Level Event
ASTROBLEME
post Mar 12 2017, 07:18 PM
Post #16


Rock Bar!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 460
Joined: 16-October 08
From: Central Colorado
Member No.: 6,813



Understanding the natural forces involved in hyper-velocity impact cratering can be overwhelming. I've spent a large part of my life working on this issue and hope to bring some clarity to those that are interested in such events. Please understand that I also have much more to learn about this phenomenon. Here's my opinion formulated from results of my research into this matter...

Mars has numerous large craters, some big enough to make the planet bulge out from a spherical shape. A good suspect for ejecting the meteorite fragments I'm collecting is the largest visible impact crater in the Solar System named the Hellas Impact Basin. There is information free from subscriptions that can be viewed in this secured link;

Hellas Planitia

The debris ejected from such large impact events is certain to accumulate into loosely bonded ruble fields while they float through space for eons. Those accumulations of impact generated ruble eventually get drawn into gravity traps formed by the major planets and some larger moons of our Solar System. These objects locked within the ruble fields can sometimes cross Earth's orbital path where they get pulled apart and their resulting trajectories hit the Earth along a straight line.

Here's a link that provides detail of how the comet that was pulled apart by Jupiter's gravitational influence eventually created impacts along a straight line as shown in this video;

Shoemaker-Levy Impact

Hope this helps with understanding what created the impact craters along the 38th Parallel.

Sincerely,

ASTROBLEME


--------------------
Holding Record for the Longest Annual Dues Paying Member 2008-2017

Tonko Mining Company

"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
billwolf
post Mar 14 2017, 12:56 PM
Post #17


Observer
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2
Joined: 10-March 17
From: seattle, wa
Member No.: 127,968



Hi guys, I am new to this site and just looking through the forums. This is really fascinating!
I have a few rocks I will post that maybe a few of you can shed some light on.
Awesome information here. Thank You


--------------------
Firewood Delivery in Seattle
Amateur Prospector
Naturalist
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
johnnybravo300
post Mar 14 2017, 01:40 PM
Post #18


Rock Bar!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 391
Joined: 13-June 15
From: North Saguache county between Gunnison and Monarch Pass
Member No.: 120,659



Welcome billwolf. Fascinating to say the least. An impact crater 24000 ft deep? Yaaaaaaa


--------------------
Level 2 member -12/25/16
Referral code JL697
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ASTROBLEME
post Mar 15 2017, 07:10 PM
Post #19


Rock Bar!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 460
Joined: 16-October 08
From: Central Colorado
Member No.: 6,813



I'm pleased to see all the interest in my efforts to understand what created the Tonko Lineament following the 38th Parallel. It is hard to get one's mind around the full extent of energy released during impacts that can launch large volumes of material from the surface of planets and moons into deep space during impact cratering events. There are several very large craters on Mars that have potential to launch gigantic volumes of Martian soil and rock far into space...well away from that planet's orbit. In the attached photo, I've projected the Martian impact basin known as Hellas Planitia onto the surface of Earth. Just for reference, I used my home as the theoretical point of impact. stamp.gif

The present day surface expression of that particular crater on Mars is 1,400 miles in diameter. Keep in mind that the crater excavation was refilled with tremendous amounts of "fallback" after impact. "Fallback" is the small dust particles and tiny mineral grains that didn't escape recapture by the gravitational forces of Mars. The impact penetration was much, much deeper before fallback material refilled up to the current 23,465 feet depth below the surface of Mars.

It is those larger fragments and blocks of material that were launched out of Mars orbit that eventually impacted into Earth along the 38th Parallel. This catastrophic event is what I refer to as the Tonko Lineament. All of this is strong evidence supporting the cause for the mass extinction event occurring in the late Devonian.

Sincerely,

ASTROBLEME

Attached Image


--------------------
Holding Record for the Longest Annual Dues Paying Member 2008-2017

Tonko Mining Company

"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gene Kooper
post Mar 16 2017, 12:42 AM
Post #20


Shovel Buster!
***

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 24-May 15
Member No.: 120,476



I am not sure that this will be received well, but geologic terms do have specific meanings. The term lineament refers to linear features (usually on aerial photos and satellite images) that are thought to represent linear geologic structures (e.g. faults). Here is a standard definition of lineament from the "Glossary of Geology", Robert L. Bates and Julia A. Jackson, editors, American Geological Institute, 2nd edition, 1980.

QUOTE
A linear topographic feature of regional extent that is believed to reflect crustal structure (Hobbs, et al., 1976, p. 267). Examples are fault lines, aligned volcanos, and straight stream courses

[A short trip into the weeds]
For geologists, the key is whether the linear feature/lineament is a surficial expression of a geologic structure. Photo-geologic interpretation usually includes the mapping of any straight features. There are two camps among geologists when it comes to distinguishing linear features and lineaments. The first camp hold the opinion that every mapped linear feature is a lineament (i.e. each linear feature demarcates a geologic structure). The second camp holds the view that a lineament is defined by a group of linear features. In other words, not every linear feature is a lineament.

I belong to the second group. Many years ago when I took a remote sensing class, I was introduced to mapping linear features on Landsat imagery. In the late 1970s, Dr. Don Sawatsky, a geophysicist at the USGS developed a method to statistically evaluate linear features. The algorithm was called LINANL and consisted of 26 Fortran programs that ran on a Perkin-Elmer minicomputer. The software computed significant trends and contoured the density of linear features as aids in interpreting lineaments.

I adapted the software to run on a PC and used it in my thesis research. Over the years I have used it numerous times to analyze photo-geologic mapping of oil and gas fields and vein-type mineral deposits. To show its utility and application I attached one USGS Open-File Report that employed LINANL to interpret potential mineral deposits in the Ruby Mountains. The link below is to a longer paper that used Landsat imagery to interpret crustal structures in the Cascade Range.

Attached File  Lineaments_and_Their_Association_with_Metal_Deposits_Ruby_Mountains_Montana.pdf ( 546.6K ) Number of downloads: 4

Analysis of Linear Features Mapped from Landsat Images of the Cascade Range, Washington, Oregon and California
[/A short trip into the weeds]

Thanks for bearing with me....now back to Mr. Tonko's term "Tonko Lineament". His hypothesis is that several possible impact craters line up along a parallel of latitude. Just because one connects several dots together does not make it a lineament. Using that term implies that there is a regional tectonic structure running due east-west. That is certainly not the case with these possible impact craters because there are no structural geologic "links" between the dots as is the case for a series of aligned volcanoes.

From my perspective, it is intriguing that several possible impact craters are aligned along an east-west geodesic. However, the mere lining up of several points in an east-west trend does not prove they were created by a disaggregated comet. The key (to me) is whether the age of the sedimentary rocks at each possible impact site falls within a very short geologic time period (i.e. 370 million years ago). Correlating conodont species from the various sites may prove useful in establishing that narrow time window.

I had asked Mr. Tonko in an earlier post in this thread if he would provide the full reference to a 2000 Warme paper on the Alamo Impact Breccia that he references on his web site. I was fortunate to take my graduate stratigraphy course from Dr. Warme in 1986. At that time his main research interest was in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco. Dr. Warme has collaborated with several researchers over the years on the Alamo Impact Breccia, and I would be interested in reading the paper that Mr. Tonko references on his website.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ASTROBLEME
post Mar 16 2017, 01:54 AM
Post #21


Rock Bar!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 460
Joined: 16-October 08
From: Central Colorado
Member No.: 6,813



The largest geologic structures found across the surface planets, moons, asteroids and comets within our solar system are craters. Some craters are volcanic, some are sink holes and some are from hyper-velocity impact. When late Devonian age impact craters are observed to be in a straight line, there is a lineament. The researcher that first recognizes the linear topographic feature should give it a proper name.

Here's the Tonko Lineament...

ASTROBLEME

Attached Image


--------------------
Holding Record for the Longest Annual Dues Paying Member 2008-2017

Tonko Mining Company

"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gene Kooper
post Mar 16 2017, 11:28 PM
Post #22


Shovel Buster!
***

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 24-May 15
Member No.: 120,476



You are of course free to misuse the term lineament to define what you believe is a series of impacts similar to the Shoemaker-Levy 9.

Perhaps Geomatt will weigh in with his opinion on its usage. Merely connecting dots along the 38th parallel does not make it a lineament.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GeoMatt
post Mar 17 2017, 10:28 AM
Post #23


Diggin' In!
**

Group: Members
Posts: 33
Joined: 28-July 14
From: Evergreen
Member No.: 117,968



QUOTE (Gene Kooper @ Mar 16 2017, 11:28 PM) *
You are of course free to misuse the term lineament to define what you believe is a series of impacts similar to the Shoemaker-Levy 9.

Perhaps Geomatt will weigh in with his opinion on its usage. Merely connecting dots along the 38th parallel does not make it a lineament.



Gene - I'm ok with the use of the "38th Parallel Lineament", as the term predates any work Mr. Tonko has ever published on the feature. However, published peer reviewed literature (that I've come across) does not include several of the features that he includes in the lineament. I'm not sure how one would argue 38th Parallel Lineament vs. Tonko Lineament, my guess is that there would be some push back in peer review. If ever proven, I would see this as an extension of the 38th Parallel Lineament, not a renamed Tonko Lineament. The majority of features in the "Tonko Lineament" have been previously identified and the lineament named, and they would be attributable to the same impact event. But feature naming is well ahead of this discussion, you have to make a defendable discovery before you worry about the name.

As for the "crater(s)" he has identified north of Westcliffe - I am very skeptical that it is in fact an impact feature. Given a proposed impact date of Late Devonian, the significant geomorphological changes of the Wet Valley from the Late Cenozoic through the Oligocene (plutonism, explosive volcanism, structural evolution, etc...), and the common rock types of the valley that could be easily mistaken for impact related rocks (tuffs, breccias, rhyolites), I see little chance of this ring structure being an impact feature. Historical mapping in the area has it as an exposed overturned anticline, but very little detailed mapping has been completed in the Mitchell Mountain area with regard to rock types. However, I also haven't seen any geological information in this thread that is definitive, most of it appears to take some creative liberties and depend on non-linear associations (no pun intended). That said, I was already planning on being in Westcliffe this summer for the rodeo. I'll look at the rocks then and decide what I see.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ASTROBLEME
post Mar 17 2017, 11:14 AM
Post #24


Rock Bar!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 460
Joined: 16-October 08
From: Central Colorado
Member No.: 6,813



QUOTE (Gene Kooper @ Mar 17 2017, 12:28 AM) *
You are of course free to misuse the term lineament to define what you believe is a series of impacts similar to the Shoemaker-Levy 9.

Perhaps Geomatt will weigh in with his opinion on its usage. Merely connecting dots along the 38th parallel does not make it a lineament.


Dear Mr. Kooper and Geomatt:

There are many geologists and other researches that also freely use term the lineament when referencing the impact craters along the line of latitude 38 degrees North. Here's a great example from the 51st Annual Meeting of the Association of Missouri Geologists on page 15 back in 2004;

"From east to west the disturbances are Hicks dome, Avon, Furnace Creek, Crooked Creek, Hazelgreen, Decaturville, Weaubleau, and Rose dome. This line of structures defines what has been called the “38th parallel lineament” because it closely approximates the 38th parallel line of latitude (Heyl, 1972)."

Then again on page 21 it states;

"Rampino and Volk (1996) and Rampino (1997) theorize that the individual structures along the 38th parallel lineament are the result of a single serial impact event, similar to the serial impact of the fragmented Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 into Jupiter during 1994."

Here's the link to that document... LINEAMENT USE IN DESCRIBING SERIAL IMPACT CRATERS

Also, there is a good use of the term here as well...MORE LINEAMENT USE IN DESCRIBING SERIAL IMPACT CRATERS

The original series of depressions and deformation structures was approximately 700 kilometers in length, following the 38th Parallel through Kansas, Missouri and Illinois. The Tonko Lineament is an extension of the 38th Parallel Lineament that more than triples the previous length to a total distance of 2367 kilometers, through Colorado, Utah and into Nevada.

Anyone that visits the craters I've discovered should bring dilute hydrochloric acid for field testing of carbonate rocks at those impact sites. That will help sort out specimens from "the common rock types of the valley that could be easily mistaken for impact related rocks (tuffs, breccias, rhyolites)" that Geomatt is concerned with. Putting a couple of drops on the impact breccia will show vigorous bubbling.

I hope this helps everyone better understand this matter.

Sincerely,

ASTROBLEME


--------------------
Holding Record for the Longest Annual Dues Paying Member 2008-2017

Tonko Mining Company

"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gene Kooper
post Mar 18 2017, 01:03 AM
Post #25


Shovel Buster!
***

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 24-May 15
Member No.: 120,476



QUOTE (GeoMatt @ Mar 17 2017, 11:28 AM) *
Gene - I'm ok with the use of the "38th Parallel Lineament", as the term predates any work Mr. Tonko has ever published on the feature. However, published peer reviewed literature (that I've come across) does not include several of the features that he includes in the lineament. I'm not sure how one would argue 38th Parallel Lineament vs. Tonko Lineament, my guess is that there would be some push back in peer review. If ever proven, I would see this as an extension of the 38th Parallel Lineament, not a renamed Tonko Lineament. The majority of features in the "Tonko Lineament" have been previously identified and the lineament named, and they would be attributable to the same impact event. But feature naming is well ahead of this discussion, you have to make a defendable discovery before you worry about the name.

I have no problem with the use of lineament with the 38th parallel structures. In fact, that aligns well with my previous definition of a lineament. For the sake of illustration, I have included the link to a Wiki article on the 38th parallel structures (also called 38th parallel lineament).

38th parallel structures - wikipedia

The quote below shows that there are associated geologic structures to the proposed impact sites.

QUOTE
....are a series of circular depressions or deformations stretching 700 km (435 mi) across southern Illinois and Missouri into eastern Kansas at a latitude of roughly 38 degrees north.

Rampino and Volk (1996) postulated that these structures could be the remains of a serial meteorite strike in the late Mississippian or early Pennsylvanian periods. Difficulty in determining the age of many of the structures and doubts about the exogenic origins of several of them leave some geologists skeptical of this hypothesis. As of 2016, only two of the structures, Crooked Creek (320 ± 80 Ma) and Decaturville (< 300 Ma), are listed as confirmed in the Earth Impact Database.[2]

There is evidence that at least some of them, such as Hicks Dome, are volcanic in origin. They are associated with faults and fractured rock, and are accompanied by igneous rocks and mineral deposits. Hicks Dome is a structural dome which has its central Devonian core displaced upward some 4,000 feet in relation to the surrounding strata. The dome has small associated igneous dikes around its flanks.

Like I said, drawing a line through these features and calling it a lineament certainly fits the definition I gave before. However, I do take exception with Mr. Tonko arbitrarily extending that line all the way to the Alamo impact site and calling that "line" a lineament. In my opinion, Mr. Tonko is doing nothing more than connecting dots together with a baseless inference that there are tectonic structures along his "lineament". That is akin to extending the Colorado Mineral Belt across the prairie until it intersects the Sudbury structure.

As far as I'm concerned Mr. Tonko can trademark the term if he is so smitten by it. That doesn't change the fact that he is misusing the term.

On a humorous note, the last paragraph of the Wiki article seems to want it both ways. The Earth is inferred to have insufficient mass to pull apart a comet like Jupiter did with Shoemaker Levy 9. They then finish by stating that, "serial impacts on the Moon can be seen in several chains of craters" which implies that the Moon was somehow able to do what the Earth most likely cannot. I'd be interested in seeing the results of some number crunching by astrophysicists regarding how the Earth could pull a comet apart so that the impacts would start in Illinois and end in Nevada.

For me the key to proving that the "Tonko Lineament" was caused by a disaggregated comet is not the fact that they lie on a "straight" line, but whether the ages of each of the potential impact sites can be correlated to the same time. The Wiki article indicates that the events could have happened anywhere from the Late Devonian to the Mississippian or Pennsylvanian periods. Mr. Tonko's hypothesis may be correct, but this discussion reminds me of Alfred Wegener and his Continental Drift theory. It was discredited until the hard science was conducted. Until then, I will remain a skeptical geologist who finds Mr. Tonko's hypothesis intriguing, but no more.

Slightly off topic WRT lineaments, but pertinent to the discussions on impact craters and diamonds is some recent research done by my old remote sensing professor, Dr. Keenan Lee. He is now an emeritus professor at Mines so he has the freedom to follow his intellectual curiosities. He has done quite a bit of research on the Tunguska event and the Popigai impact structure, both in Siberia. Here is an article on his MInes web page regarding the Popigai impact structure

Folks here may find the last section on "impact diamonds" intriguing.

Thanks for your input GeoMatt.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gene Kooper
post Mar 19 2017, 11:32 AM
Post #26


Shovel Buster!
***

Group: Members
Posts: 83
Joined: 24-May 15
Member No.: 120,476



I ran across an interesting presentation at the 2012 Rocky Mountain Section GSA conference in Albuquerque, NM. The presentation was the last talk of the Meteorites and Impact Craters (GSA Planetary Geology Division) session. Here is a link to the abstract of Joel G. Duncan's presentation.

THE COLORADO CATACLYSM: AN IMPACT CRATER CLUSTER IN THE FRONT RANGE

QUOTE
Remote sensing and extensive field studies have revealed a previously unknown cluster of impact structures in the Colorado Front Range Mountains. Seven circular structures ranging from 10 km to 30 km in diameter were identified with USGS LIDAR as well as Google Earth satellite imagery in the Front Range west of I-25 between Denver and Colorado Springs.

I am most interested in the Lake George impact structure as many years ago I had conducted a lineament analysis north of Lake George. At the time I thought the radial and ring linear features were related to a small stock to the southwest. I used the lineament analysis to locate lode mining claims for my client.

The last paragraph of the abstract may be of interest to some here.

QUOTE
Clustering strongly suggests that the impacts were essentially simultaneous and therefore formed during the same impact event. A maximum age of the impact structures is established by shatter cones found in sandstone of the Cambrian Sawatch Formation at the northwest end of the Woodland Park graben. Several impact structures are cut by Laramide faults (K- Eocene) giving an upper age limit for the impact event.

Included in the link is the PowerPoint presentation with several graphics showing the impact structures, shatter cones and diaplectic glass.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ASTROBLEME
post Mar 25 2017, 05:44 PM
Post #27


Rock Bar!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 460
Joined: 16-October 08
From: Central Colorado
Member No.: 6,813



Quote from Gene Kooper to GeoMatt;

"Like I said, drawing a line through these features and calling it a lineament certainly fits the definition I gave before. However, I do take exception with Mr. Tonko arbitrarily extending that line all the way to the Alamo impact site and calling that "line" a lineament. In my opinion, Mr. Tonko is doing nothing more than connecting dots together with a baseless inference that there are tectonic structures along his "lineament". That is akin to extending the Colorado Mineral Belt across the prairie until it intersects the Sudbury structure."

My response:

The research resulting in my discovery of the Tonko Lineament and the link to a mass extinction event is not done "arbitrarily" nor is it "a baseless inference" as the opined comment suggests. I've conducted numerous literature reviews of research published in similar efforts, traveled extensively for field work and contracted for detailed laboratory analysis of several sample specimens that I collected over the years. This work is still ongoing after more than a decade. It is difficult and done at my own expense, so please bear with me.

I did not intend to offend anyone by my use of my name in my discovery. It was my intent to aid prospectors working in these areas with this new information and encourage those interested to try and collect specimens for themselves.

Sincerely,

ASTROBLEME
(aka Mr. Tonko)


--------------------
Holding Record for the Longest Annual Dues Paying Member 2008-2017

Tonko Mining Company

"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ASTROBLEME
post Apr 18 2017, 05:41 PM
Post #28


Rock Bar!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 460
Joined: 16-October 08
From: Central Colorado
Member No.: 6,813



Hello Everyone,

There is a growing controversy within the Meteorite Community. The "SNC meteorites" (Shergottite, Nakhlite and Chassingite) have been proclaimed to be of Martian origin based on what was reasonably surmised about Mars decades ago. Now that more and more data is being collected from Mars by orbiting satellites and rovers operating on the surface, the question is "why don't the SNC meteorites trend with the rover data?"

Based on the more recent data collection, it is conceivable that Mars is substantially different from the early scientific community's understanding. There are very few meteorites that actually match up to the newer data.

I've placed my data points onto the Harker diagram that includes 2015 data from Sautter et al. The SNC meteorites are in blue, the earth rock is in red and the rover data is in green. Having specimens in hand that look like rocks photographed on Mars, along with petrochemistry that matches data being collected on Mars...leaves me pretty confidant that the meteorite fragments I'm collecting have a high probability of being from Mars.

ASTROBLEME

Attached Image


--------------------
Holding Record for the Longest Annual Dues Paying Member 2008-2017

Tonko Mining Company

"Some day this crater is going to be a greatly talked about place, and if the above credit is due, as is certainly the case, I would like to have it generally known for the sake of the children." Daniel Moreau Barringer 2/1/1912 in a letter about the Barringer Meteorite Crater, Arizona USA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
7 User(s) are reading this topic (7 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th June 2017 - 01:14 PM