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Small Scale Mining, truth vs myth
CP
post Feb 8 2010, 09:13 AM
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The prudent man rule is only used by claim owners and only when in the process of perfecting the claim to patent.
Unless they are trying to patent the claim it doesn't apply, or in other words, it's not the time to use the prudent man rule.



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russau
post Feb 9 2010, 06:43 AM
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ok, i thought the claim owner (im not one) could have to prove the prudent man rule if questioned by the "ruling agency" if questioned about his claims validity. this keeps people from aquireing land as claims for hunting or other than locateable mineral extract. and if found that their not in compliance with this rule, they would lose their claim!
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russau
post Feb 9 2010, 06:45 AM
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after all, why would you bother aquireing a claim if there isnt any locatable minerals on it. why put in all the work for nothing. i thought you had to make a find,even if its a very small find, then claim it.
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CP
post Apr 15 2010, 09:20 AM
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Yes Russ, indeed, why would someone? These are called paper filers and many of whom have never visited the ground they claimed but only filed the paperwork.......usually with the intent to resell immediately (without any proven work/deposit) or as many say......."to mine the miners"
It's disgraceful!

Although many are doing it, it doesn't make it legal or ethical.
Mining claims are for only 1 reason......TO MINE!
So, any bona fide miner that has that in mind would also have the thought for future work, life expectancy of the mine and reclamation as needed through out. This would normally include perfection to patent (in the old days) and proving the prudent man rule through that process.

As Astrobleme said though, there is a moratorium on patenting process and another bit from what I've read...... there is no funding for a federal mineral surveyor. Without the federal approved mineral survey of the deposit within claim, the perfecting to patent process is impossible to complete.

I have no idea what a federal approved mineral survey is vs a private, but I'm guessing neither one is cheap.

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h20prospector
post Apr 26 2010, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE (ColoradoProspector @ Apr 15 2010, 10:20 AM) *
Yes Russ, indeed, why would someone? These are called paper filers and many of whom have never visited the ground they claimed but only filed the paperwork.......usually with the intent to resell immediately (without any proven work/deposit) or as many say......."to mine the miners"
It's disgraceful!

Although many are doing it, it doesn't make it legal or ethical.
Mining claims are for only 1 reason......TO MINE!
So, any bona fide miner that has that in mind would also have the thought for future work, life expectancy of the mine and reclamation as needed through out. This would normally include perfection to patent (in the old days) and proving the prudent man rule through that process.

As Astrobleme said though, there is a moratorium on patenting process and another bit from what I've read...... there is no funding for a federal mineral surveyor. Without the federal approved mineral survey of the deposit within claim, the perfecting to patent process is impossible to complete.

I have no idea what a federal approved mineral survey is vs a private, but I'm guessing neither one is cheap.

CP

No, owning a mining claim isn't cheap (I'm a partner on 4 claims). If one want's to make improvements, and yes there is a moratorium on the patenting process, the B.L.M. has a specialist for geology, environment, weeds, etc. If they do approve your request, a bond is required, B.L.M. sets the amount, and when you give up or loose the claim, you've promised to restore it to its original state. If you don't, the bond is forfeited, and the bond company comes after you. The B.L.M. stonewalls you at every turn. They even contradict their own rules


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CP
post Apr 26 2010, 12:27 PM
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Owning a claim and a mineral survey are 2 completely different things and actually owning the claim isn't really expensive itself.

I'm thinking the "request" is a POO submitted (including reclamation plans)? If so, the POO is required to be approved and is no way a "request". In fact the authorities may "request" changes to "minimize adverse conditions" but they are required to approve them.

Bonding is determined by the amount of disturbance proposed and it's my understanding that the bond is handled in Colorado by the Colorado DMRS, not the BLM. Real mining operations do have bonding that will be used if in fact the claim/mine work is abandoned but not because the claim itself is abandoned. When a claim/mine work is abandoned, then the Colorado DMRS is who will come in to actually do the reclamation and the funds will be used to pay for tractors, man power, tree seedlings etc.
As far as "improvements"......there are actually yearly "improvements" required by law to keep a claim that does not need bonding.


Hope this helps straighten out some of the confusion.

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Persistence
post Jun 8 2010, 09:23 PM
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So I just Googled "prospecting wilderness area" and the first hit was for Tonto National Forest. This claims that panning, sluicing and metal detecting is the same as mining and not permitted in the wilderness area without a Plan of Operations.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/wilderness/other_Activ.shtml

PDF link of same http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/recreation/r...PROSPECTING.pdf

I stumbled across something similar for some place in Oregon a month ago, didn't save it and couldn't find it later. I saved the PDF file of this one in case it also disappears.

QUOTE
PROSPECTING, MINING, AND SEARCHING FOR TREASURE IN WILDERNESS AREAS ON THE TONTO NATIONAL FOREST

This brief outline discusses mining-related activities within wilderness areas. Additional information may be obtained at Bureau of Land Management or Forest Service offices.

PROSPECTING: Prospecting is the gathering of information on minerals resources. Prospecting is allowed within a designed Wilderness Area, but an approved Plan of Operations is required. No person can acquire any right or interest to mineral resources discovered by prospecting or other information-gathering activity. Extraction of minerals (expect a small grade sample) is a type of mining, and must comply with all related laws and regulations. (See “Mining” below). If the search is for precious worked metal or other treasure, see “Treasure Trove Hunting” below.

MINING: Mining is any activity that attempts to extract minerals (which are valuable and locatable) from their natural setting. No mining of any type (whether for recreation and/or for profit) is allowed except with an approved Notice of Intent and/or Plan of Operations for activity on a legal claim with valid existing rights. New mining claims can no longer be filed on designated Wilderness Areas. The Wilderness Act of 1964 allowed mining claims to be filled until January 12, 1984, at which time all wilderness areas were closed to new mineral entry. Subsequently, designated wilderness areas were closed to minerals entry when the new law was enacted.

GOLD PANNING: This category includes panning, sluicing, or dredging wet or dry material. If any mineral is extracted by this activity (for recreation and/or profit) it is a type of mining: see “Mining” above. If minerals were not extracted, this activity would be a type of prospecting (See “Prospecting” above).

METAL DETECTING: If a metal detector is used to search for and/or extract locatable minerals, the activity is considered either a form of prospecting or mining (See “Prospecting” and “Mining” above.) If the search is for money (except recent vintage coins) or precious worked-metal(See “Treasure Trove Hunting” below.) If the search is for recent vintage coins, no permit is needed so long as there is no significant soil disturbance.

Q: Where can you metal detect on the Tonto National Forest?
A: The Tonto National Forest is not closed to metal detecting but neither are specific areas set aside for such activities. The detector’s search should be a recreational pursuit confined to areas with no historic or prehistoric value. Specific areas might include the numerous developed recreational sites along the Chain of Lakes on Verde and Salt Rivers. It is the responsibility of the detectors to avoid disturbing, altering, or removing archaeological resources protected by federal law. The Forest Service does not mark or disclose the location of archaeological or historic sites unless they are developed and interpreted for public visitation. If you’re unsure of what is or isn’t an archaeological site or resource, you should contact the Forest Archaeologist at 602-225-5231.

TREASURE TROVE HUNTING: A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked-metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent vintage coins, located minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. A Treasure Trove Permit must authorize searching for such treasures. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days and the site is subject to inspection.

If you are interested in doing any of these activities in a designated Wilderness, you should first discuss your intentions with a local Forest Service officer. Remember that only a small part of each national forest is classified as Wilderness; many opportunities exist outside these special areas where the types of activities described above can be carried out in compliance with the laws and regulations which pertain to those non-Wilderness areas.

6/6/08 G-00-06


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CP
post Jun 9 2010, 09:30 AM
Post #23


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Hi Persistence, good job diggin' in to this. happy088.gif

Here is a link to the quote of the law 16USC1133 "use of wilderness areas" thread where you can read the law itself.

The law states "Nothing in this chapter shall prevent within national forest
wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting"


I'd say the law would trump the FS webpage. thumbsupsmileyanim.gif Just because a FS webpage says something doesn't mean the law will back it up.

Read it through very thoroughly, and keep in mind that "mineral leasing laws" are not the same as locatables. Wilderness areas clearly define that leasables (commercial operations) are not allowed, but there is a very lengthy paragraph explaining how locatables are still functioning within the wilderness areas.
Leasables not being a valid or exsisting "right" but locatables are in fact a "valid and exsisting right", YOURS!
You'll notice that this phrase is used repeatedly in the law....."subject to valid and or exsisting rights" chin.gif Your rights are not a lease or permit or license. wink.gif

Keep on diggin' everyone! emoticon-misc-004.gif

CP


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CP
post Oct 13 2010, 09:05 AM
Post #24


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Another myth to dispell and get folks on the right track for their train of thought to be a bonafide prospector/miner in the field.

Can I be charged a fee to access a location claim?

No, absolutely not. It is specifically prohibited by law to charge access to the public land you already have a right to access. holding a claim and charging fees for access DOES NOT fall into a use "reasonably incident to mining".
IE..... IT'S NOT A MINING USE AND THE CLAIM IS BEING HELD FOR NON MINING PURPOSES!

This activity would not be within the intent of the mining law which states the only reason a mining claim can be filed/held is FOR MINING!
No claim owners, groups etc should be asking you to pay fees to access claims they hold.

CP


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Coalbunny
post Oct 21 2010, 10:51 PM
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Ok, "to access". But.... let's say I have 40 acres of claims on the Upper Arkansas (I wish!), and you want permission to go panning there. I can say "no". But then, what if I tell you "Ok, but only if you use this particular piece of your equipment and pay me $20 per day"? I figure that should be permissible. Right?


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CP
post Oct 24 2010, 08:49 AM
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Well I was speaking strictly "accessing" but lets have a look at your scenario..........

I suppose you could charge a fee per day and stipulate what equipment be used as well as where they prospect but..... In my opinion that wouldn't be a "use reasonably incident to mining" since there isn't any "lease" per say for this arrangement. As a claim owner that would put you personally into a precarious situation/liabilities possible also.
Basically this would still be more like a pay to dig set up which clearly needs to be operated on patented lands. If one were to operate on FS or BLM for pay to dig or fee by the day digging you as a claim owner would be vulnerable to several legal aspects/thresholds crossed that have nothing to do with mining, like an outfitters license for running a paid tourist operation on federal lands.....get the check book out for that puppy!
Insurance for liability while taking them out prospecting which will be required by law for the outfitters license....don't put that check book away yet.

Then there is the factor of "well no one will mind if I leave just one hole unfilled".....even though you may have told them to fill all digs on your claiim. But if you aren't there to make sure of it, do you think everyone will? Whether they do or do not fill digs, once you accepted payment and granted access to prospect, I think you are the responsible party to fill/pay for reclamation should the gov officials get the idea your claims in disarray from your "uses".

Frankly though, if a claim owner wants to stipulate what is used and where the digging is to be done.....wouldn't or shouldn't the claim owner be paying the prospector for his/her time, efforts etc? chin.gif emoticon-misc-004.gif Prospeting is alot of work! whew.gif

Anyway, the long and short of it is, it would not be in the claim owners best interest (as a miner) to do that. In court that would be awfully tough to prove as an activity reasonably incident to mining since there was only money exchanged and no minerals sold, leased, extracted or recorded. If you can't prove you were "using the claim for mining activities" then the government could have the ammo to invalidate the claim.

Remember folks, this is just my opinion based on the laws as I read them and I'm open for more discussion in this thread or start new ones if you have more questions. Browse around and read up on all the info, then post up your input. Our collective interpretations of these laws help everyone learn more about them who's interested to learn about them. research.gif

CP


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swizz
post Oct 24 2010, 10:51 AM
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Regarding claimants charging "fees":
In reading this, it appears to be an extremely open-ended topic that can easily drift in many legal directions and interpretations. I think it boils down to individual cases based on terms including (but not limited to); "fees", "use", "type of claim, ie patent or location", "purpose", "liability", "lease", etc.... many factors.
In short, one can probably manufacture loopholes based upon definitions of terms to effectively skirt or interpret federal definitions which are obviously loosely defined. That being said, a "loophole" (no matter how good it sounds) still invites a red flag and can potentially cause difficulties ( legal, liable, personal, etc) for all parties involved.

Regarding clubs and claim "fees"...
This is the only prospector-related club that I belong to and CP does not offer pay-to-play claims or charge mining fees with any level of membership. I had looked at almost all of the other prospecting clubs prior to joining here. Every single one that offered claim(s) access stated something to the effect of: "pay here, join us and access to our private claims". This may be well within their rights but I also noticed that they ALL required payers to download and sign a legal waiver releasing the claimant from all or most liabilities. I'm not sure if that could be construed as a legal loophole or just smart business, not qualified to determine that.

Another example that comes to mind are roadside places that offer on-site pay to mine services on their claims. I'm assuming that they are patented claims and subject to different legal obligations or rights in regard to "fees".

Regarding me....
In consideration of eventually offering access to my claim (NOT charging fees) to Level 3 Members, I'm following this thread closely. I'm not interested in making money by charging people to prospect my claim, more interested in sharing with fellow Lifers whom I can both learn from and gather sampling information. My motivation is certainly give/take but involves no monetary exchange. Dan & Denise could potentially benefit slightly from this in a purely indirect way and my claim access to lifetime members should be considered a club donation... which is what I would intend it to be. Win/win/win for all three parties involved is the way I see it if legal and done properly. Although my intentions are noble and not monetary, I really need to clarify the legalities.... can't afford any gray areas!

keep the information coming!


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Denise
post Oct 25 2010, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE (swizz @ Oct 24 2010, 10:51 AM) *
Regarding claimants charging "fees":
In reading this, it appears to be an extremely open-ended topic that can easily drift in many legal directions and interpretations. I think it boils down to individual cases based on terms including (but not limited to); "fees", "use", "type of claim, ie patent or location", "purpose", "liability", "lease", etc.... many factors.
In short, one can probably manufacture loopholes based upon definitions of terms to effectively skirt or interpret federal definitions which are obviously loosely defined. That being said, a "loophole" (no matter how good it sounds) still invites a red flag and can potentially cause difficulties ( legal, liable, personal, etc) for all parties involved.

Regarding clubs and claim "fees"...
This is the only prospector-related club that I belong to and CP does not offer pay-to-play claims or charge mining fees with any level of membership. I had looked at almost all of the other prospecting clubs prior to joining here. Every single one that offered claim(s) access stated something to the effect of: "pay here, join us and access to our private claims". This may be well within their rights but I also noticed that they ALL required payees to download and sign a legal waiver releasing the claimant from all or most liabilities. I'm not sure if that could be construed as a legal loophole or just smart business, not qualified to determine that.


Well said Swizz! This is something many are confused about and have questions regarding..........
What I want to know is why are some still so confused? chin.gif If paying an individual, group, club or organization that offers up claim access, shouldnt that be explained before paying, on what the claim(s) are used for and what they are teaching you...etc. anyone.gif Take the School of Mines for a good example..... Now thats a website that shows that their goal is education. If one truely wants to learn about mining in many facets, this is a great place. They even have claims (PATENTED) they allow the students to use.......In a supervised organized educational environment .
Now thats the best way to get hands on training. happy088.gif

What I would like to see, is that more of these individuals, groups, clubs or organizations teaching everyone more about safety, land research, laws, regulations, etc.....! Especially if they claim to be eduacting and are charging a fee to access location claims.

Is there someone on scene teaching people about safety, and the proper ways to dig mineral deposits? Are they just told what kind of equipment they can or cant use, and what times they can access the claims? What are people learning just by visiting their websites?

What I do hear alot is that these claims have way too many unclaimed digs, leaving the claims unsafe for the next individual or family that comes to prospect.

It really sadens me! sadno.gif Sorry, but these dont sound like claims/websites I would want to go to learn the RIGHT way to prospect. Just my 2c.gif

I also hear how members of clubs/organizations are still confused and looking for answers.

Thats part of what Dan and myself try really hard to help everyone with. Finding the right laws/answers to their questions. If we all discuss this with each other, than as a whole we can come up with the right answers and ways to do it. smile.gif

QUOTE (swizz @ Oct 24 2010, 10:51 AM) *
Regarding me....
In consideration of eventually offering access to my claim (NOT charging fees) to Level 3 Members, I'm following this thread closely. I'm not interested in making money by charging people to prospect my claim, more interested in sharing with fellow Lifers whom I can both learn from and gather sampling information. My motivation is certainly give/take but involves no monetary exchange. Dan & Denise could potentially benefit slightly from this in a purely indirect way and my claim access to lifetime members should be considered a club donation... which is what I would intend it to be. Win/win/win for all three parties involved is the way I see it if legal and done properly. Although my intentions are noble and not monetary, I really need to clarify the legalities.... can't afford any gray areas!


Awesome of you Swizz!
We have just the thing, if you want to use it Swizz. happy112.gif Check it out......
"Mining Claim Lease" thread Dan started.


Denise


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swizz
post Oct 25 2010, 11:36 AM
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Love the form, that is excellent!
I downloaded and printed the MSWord version. Thanks!!


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swizz
post Oct 25 2010, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE (Mrs.CP @ Oct 25 2010, 10:59 AM) *
What I do hear alot is that these claims have way too many unclaimed digs, leaving the claims unsafe for the next individual or family that comes to prospect.

It really sadens me! sadno.gif Sorry, but these dont sound like claims/websites I would want to go to learn the RIGHT way to prospect. Just my 2c.gif

I also hear how members of clubs/organizations are still confused and looking for answers.

Thats part of what Dan and myself try really hard to help everyone with...


(here's two more cents)
This is what gets my goat also. Clubs spoon-feeding people claims. A fine display of how we have become a lazy self-centered culture that demands instant gratification with little or no work involved, we'd rather pay someone else to do our homework and paperwork. "I don't need to know how it works bub, here's some cash... hand it over, I'll figure it out later if I have time.. I'll sign whatever, let's get rolling"
Granted - this club offers areas, not private claims but real BLM and FS land areas which have been researched and "homework" has been done by club staff. That's where the similarities END. Club members still have to do a little homework prior to visiting each of these areas, as they are public lands and constantly subject to land status or regulatory change at the drop of a hat. Each location provides a clerk/recorder contact info so that club members can AND DO legally check the status through the proper channels... ALL BY THEMSELVES! As basic as this sounds, I find this to be an integral step in the learning process of becoming a small scale miner or well educated recreational miner. One step leads to another and this club provides some great "do-it-yourself" avenues. Many dedicated members here who really take the time to learn and share regarding the legal and technical nuances of proper mining.

I'm surprised that big-box claim clubs don't get complaints from people who want their gold giftwrapped when they get to there.
Hey, someone has to cater to the ignorant greedy masses. I'm actually glad that those private club claims exist and keep the goobers occupied... away from the real mineral locations, devoid of learning how to legally find minerals on their own, incapable of filing their own simple location claims, unable, uneducated, or just too plain lazy to make legal locatable discoveries away from their club baby pens.
No doubt those clubs have some fine and knowledgeable individuals on their rosters and memberships, but the general demographic is as I just described it... and I was being polite.
I thank the big-box clubs for providing sanctuaries where that species of miner can be isolated. KUDOS! arms.gif
Remember: education is the real treasure wink.gif


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