DREDGERS: Push Volume Info U NEED Options

[gold_tutor]

We have an interesting set of Water Regs in Oregon to say the least.

One of them is the 5000 gallon per day or less small miners' exclusion to permit fees...aka NO permit fee due and owing, and 5001 gpd or more is a $300 annual permit fee due and owing level with its own accompanying regs and headaches and filings, ad nauseum.

Here--in plain English--are the specifics as they were explained to me by a mining engineer so that all can see how the application of a mining engineering's principle called "push volume calculations according to industry standards" -- may and can be used to calculate disturbance, turbidity, etc., the crux of the 228.4a matter currently in our collective faces.

FOUR (A through D) factors are listed below which can and will be used when push comes to shove --and we all know who is going to get shoved--in order to to calculate any operator's water usage according to personal equipment specs and most assuredly can and will be used AGAINST a small operator who the state or fed's deem is in the wrong. We're just dumb miners to the bureaucrats.  They have the engineering science which they will pull out at their timing, and will surprise the small miner with science and math calculations.

It is my belief that by posting some specifics regarding "Push volume" and "Draw gpm" volumetrics,  this brief overview effort herein, will permit the current  (and hopefully future) dredgers with the opportunity to estimate more closely--using the same mathematically supported facts--regarding YOUR water usage in OREGON in case you ever need to start to defend yourself, your hours in the water and your choice of equipment for results you are seeking, and most of all why you didn't purchase the $300 permit for water usage per day that exceeds the exclusionary provision.

Frankly, Guys/Gals: Probably won't hurt to start keeping a Dredger's Log if you are already in the regulators hassling you hotseat...to show times of operation and places where you were using your gear.  Ayup, long-haul trucking and mining may now have something ELSE in common--and a Dredger's Log Book requirement may just be coming shortly, who knows?

It is my hope that anyone who has a dredge or a highbanker combo he or she would like to use within the state of Oregon waterways for the purpose of goldmining will print this out, use a highlighter to indicate YOUR equipment so that you can be armed with a semblance of facts if you get hassled out on your claim or in Oregon's waterways of ANY type in any locale.

EDIT: July 24, 2004 It's only 5 months 'til Xmas eve!!! Do you know where your presents are?

PUSH VOLUME CALCS:
Please be forwarned and prepared to understand before reading this next section that: :
1) Oregon WRD considers dredging and highbanking water
"REMOVAL & Diversionary, and as such requires proper permitting in the eyes of the WRD (Water Resources Department--a state agency which has carved up Oregon into 12 water districts.)

2) the smallest of Keene pumps (P100)
matched by Keene with a Briggs and Stratton 3.5HP (MODEL P103)
using a 4" nozzle
can and does exceed the 5000 gallon per day exclusion level where no permits are required from just being run LESS THAN 1 hour just based on
Official Keene Pump Draw chart
on page 28 of the latest Keene 2003 Product Catalog,
...at designed and engineered pump effeciency rating, with NO degradations for age or elevations.

The Pump Draw for that Engine and Pump matched pair from Keene is 150 GPM.

60 min in an hour x 150gpm DRAW =9000 GPH, or legal usage of .55 hours if only drawing water from an regulated Oregon Waterway covered by WRD regulations.

.55 hours??? YES! THAT's 33 minutes of actual dredging or highbanking with a 4" nozzle, with one of Keene's SMALLEST pump and engine combo's just to stay within Oregon's 5000 gpd exclusion from required fee stated permit payment "level."

To be safe, Push Volumetrics on the above pump/engine/nozzle dictates that in stream per day time is reduced to about 10 minutes, guys/gals!!!

And it is my clear understanding that PUSH VOLUME based on mfg pump specs is the metric used to prosecute violators of the 5000 gpd exclusion. Don't take my word for it...call your personal watermaster of YOUR district.

MORE ABOUT PUSH VOLUME:
PUSH VOLUME** Gallons Per Minute is calculated based on INDUSTRY STANDARD slurry density measurements--which takes into account these 4 factors:
A ) particle size,
B ) pump size,
C ) nozzle size, and
D ) aggregate type that one is moving through one's 4" nozzle,....
....a dredger who wishes to work within the confines of Oregon WATER LAW's 5000 gal per day exclusion, has even LESS CLOCK TIME to dredge or highbank in Oregon public waters without the proper minimum $300 permit fee being due and owing.

**Push Volume is the proper mining engineering term for the amount of watery slurry pushed up the nozzle and over the riffles. It is ALWAYS greater than pump DRAW in GPMin/GPHr/GPDay

PUSH VOLUME is a mathematical calc based on INDUSTRY STANDARDS. I am not clear where to get ahold of a set of those "industry standards," but I'm willing to bet WRD / FS / BLM regulators know where to look and how to use those metrics!!!!

Most dredgers/highbankers and placer miners have never heard of Push Volume nor are aware they are subject to this higher VOLUME standard when facing the prospects of being cited or fined for exceeding the Water Resources Department 5000 gpd exclusion as a "hobbyist/recreational" miner.

Spread the word to every Dredger you know who operates in the Oregon Waterways.
The wallet you save, may be your own. :(

LINKS:
OR--DEQ & WATERBOARD LINKS to permits & fees
Oregon DEQ here
http://www.deq.state.or.us/wq/search/query...ext+9+documents

Oregon Water Resources Department here:
http://www.wrd.state.or.us/fees/fees2003.pdf

main page to search for Water Rights already extant, statewide, by legal description:
http://www.wrd.state.or.us/publication/forms/index.shtml

Attached image(s)

 

[gold_tutor]

RE: Redpaw: Opening up for clarification what he doesn't like about my Push Volume Post:

I'm not inferring anything, Dave.

I'm stating how mining engineering uses draw volume vs push volume. Sorry buddy, but I stick by my mining engineer.

Part of the reason I do not believe for one nano-second that dredging within the wetted perameter is always permitted by state law is simple:

The Sumpter Dredge and others of that behemoth size would still be operating in Oregon were it not for state laws regulating dredging and what constitutes a permit charge for Consumption and Diversion usage. This implies, of course, that the costs per ounce of dredging activity on that scale were not just economical, but also profitable.

I hear and respect that you went round and round with Higbee in Salem. However, please respectfully hear that you were not asking Pump Draw rating vs Push Volume questions as they applied to the 5000gpd exclusion from buying permit status. Those are the questions I asked, not of WRD, but of Engineers with credentials which I assume WRD and DEQ and other agencies seek to successfully hire in order to manage things such as water resources.

The 5000gpd exclusion is clearly a part of Water Resources Board Regs. And it is Push Volume, not Draw that is used to determine violations of 5000gpd "rule."

It is a shocker for most dredgers to learn they can push more volume than their pump draw rating. It seems illogical on the first glance. However, that is not the case.

Now, let's move to your swimming pool illustration,
let's compare apples to apples shall we, Dave?
The standard in the WRD regs is 5000gpd USE AND DIVERSION, not 9000g swimming pool filling. Of course it would take longer to fill a 9000 pool than a 5000g pool. No question.

However, you will have to take up the engineering rating of the Keene Pump from the chart above with Keene, because that is immutable from where I'm looking.

The last time I heard there were still 60 minutes in an hour to multiply the appropriate Keene column stat from their engineering department and get the gpm
result. That is math isn't subject to interpretation either.

The Keene Engineers chart is THEIR rating, not something I made up.

Furthermore, Keene told me on the phone, that all their pump data was good to 5000 elevations, period.

Guess it is your turn, Redpaw.

Sounds like we're talking apples and oranges to me. I tried to share this info with you on the phone and you hooted at me and the science then. And you are hooting now. I promised to provide the details, and I have. I did not and still DO NOT expect any dredger on the internet to like what I've said. Doesn't change slurry density, the 4 factors that compose it and PUSH VOLUME calcs one iota.

I'm talking SLURRY DENSITY and you haven't addressed that in any of your rebuttals nor have you indicated you discussed Slurry Density and Push Volume with Higbee in Salem . Am I correct?

This is where I think the communication problem between us is:
Slurry density is a mathematical calculation of how much solids a slurry can hold/move under the 4 criteria used above.

SLURRY DENSITY:
is why Push Volume is so critical.
is why Push Volume is so critical in turbidity studies.

I'm trying to keep your collective behinds out of a ringer, Dave, when you all show up to demonstrate whatever to the DEQ.

Or let me put this another way:
YOUR AGENDA IS CLEAR: Let us do this dredging thing in Oregon purdy please.
THEIR AGENDA is UNCLEAR according to your efforts to pin them down, AAAAND they "casually mentioned" want to do some "turbidity samples" while they are there.
I believe I'm quoting your GDForum post correctly.

Now who is playing with a full deck (the dredgers) and who has the loaded deck(WRD and DEQ)?

Need I say the obvious: I smell a set up and I'm concerned about it.
BTW...I traded in my backpacker dredge for a Doodlebug Trommel....so this stuff isn't just theoretical to me...it is gut level, in my face this mining season concern.
Guess it's your turn.